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Voiced aspirated plosives (was: phonetic)

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Wednesday, January 5, 2005, 18:48
On Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 09:17 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:

> Ray Brown wrote: > >>>> And there voiced equivalent? can a voiced plosive be >>>> aspirated? >>> >>> >>> Yes. >> >> >> Yes - they are common in the Indic languages. > > They are strictly speaking breathy-voiced, > a peculiar kind of phonation in the larynx. > Aspiration is strictly delayed voice onset, and > that is of course not possible between a voiced > stop and a following (voiced) vowel.
Indeed not - I had assumed in the Sanskrit, Hindi/Urdu _bh_, _dh_ etc. the _h_ was voiced, i.e. [h\] (IPA [ɦ]) - after all, [h\] is not exactly an uncommon sound. But your description of "breathy-voiced, a peculiar kind of phonation in the larynx" sounds like the 'creaky-voiced' or laryngealized sounds I referred to later in my reply:
>>>> When a phonetic symbol has a ~ under it, it makes >>>> that it is "creaky voiced" >>>> but what does it means? >>> >>> No idea how to explain this... you say it as if you >>> have laryngitis, I guess. Like you've something caught >>> in your throat. >> >> In fact these sounds are often described as 'laryngealized'. The sounds >> are produced by a slow vibration of only one end of the vocal chords. >> Hausa distinguishes between creaky (laryngealized) plosives and >> non-creaky >> plosives.
So are the voiced aspirated plosives of the Indic languages in fact the same as the laryngealized plosives of Hausa? So how is the Urdu/Hindi _bhai_ (brother) pronounced? Is it [b_h\ai] or [b_kai] or [b_kh\ai] or what? Are there perhaps variations in dialect and in different Indic languages? It always struck me as rather odd that PIE was credited with a series of voiceless plosives, voiced unaspirated and voiced aspirated plosives, but no voiceless aspirated plosives. I know it makes sense from a backward reconstruction from the 'daughter' languages, but it did seem an odd system for a language to have. I know PIE linguistics have moved on since I was last seriously looked at them. What is the present state of play, so to speak, regarding the PIE 'voiced aspirated' plosives? Ray =============================================== =============================================== Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight, which is not so much a twilight of the gods as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]