Re: (tangent thoughts arising from) Active-Ergative langs (discussion)

Rik Roots wrote:

>John kissed Mary and he left [=then left?]
>-> Jone injate ye Marh zhek evda rhaetalta ok
>
>John kissed Mary and she left [=who left?]
>-> Jone injate ye Marh zhek evda rhaetalta oc
>
>The only difference between the two examples being that the last word
>of the relative clause, "ok" tells the listener that the subject of
>the relative clause is the same as the subject of the main clause (ie
>John), while "oc" states that the subject of the relative clause is
>the same as the direct object of the main clause - Mary. (In both
>examples "zhek", which introduces the relative clause, tells the
>listener that the (in this case omitted) subject of the relative
>clause is relating to some word in the main clause).
Looks like a "switch-reference" system - I have one of these in Telek
too.  Since not even all linguists have seen switch-reference, I suppose I
ought to explain.

Switch-reference markers usually occur in positions comparable to "that"
(as in "I know that John is coming."), and languages that have them usually
require them to appear in nearly all subordinate clauses.  There are two
markers for each subordinate conjunction: a "same-subject" marker, and a
"different-subject" maker.  Easily guessed, same-subject markers indicate
that the subject of the subordinate clause refers to the subject of the
main clause; and the different-subject markers indicate that the subjects
are not the same -- it doesn't mean that the subject is the same as an
object.  (But that is forced by "zhek" if I understand you
correctly.)  Here's an example using English words and your "ok" and "oc"
(hope you don't mind the mix-and-matching).

John knows ok he is late.  (John equals he)
John knows oc he is late.  (John does not equal he; he is somebody else,
unspecified here)

Here's my old "God gave bread" translation as an example from Telek.

lajhosdoo-l et-daabii-d ke-et-ax-e-'ni; ke-et-ax-nawwi'-e-'ni-ko
Mother.Nature-NOM 1pP-tooth-ACC AsA-1pP-BEN-provide-PERF;
AsA-1pP-BEN-bread-provide-IRR-CONJ(SS)
"Mother Nature provided teeth for us, and she will provide bread for
us."  ("She" is Mother Nature)

lajhosdoo-l et-daabii-d ke-et-ax-e-'ni; ke-et-ax-nawwi'-e-'ni-ba
Mother.Nature-NOM 1pP-tooth-ACC AsA-1pP-BEN-provide-PERF;
AsA-1pP-BEN-bread-provide-IRR-CONJ(DS)
"Mother Nature provided teeth for us, and she will provide bread for
us."  ("She" is not Mother Nature)


>Completely off-topic, but I hope people don't mind me making selfish
>observations about Gevey in this manner.
Not at all.  I'm glad to see another conlang using switch-reference.  It's
one of my favorite linguistic features.


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Marcus Smith
AIM:  Anaakoot
"When you lose a language, it's like
dropping a bomb on a museum."
   -- Kenneth Hale
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