Re: Mandarin demonstratives

> From: "H. S. Teoh"
>
> > laokou wrote:
>
> > > I learned "di7" for "at", but dialects is dialects. The only "dua7" I
> can
> > > think of that might be cognate is "live"  ("Li2 dua3 dou2 wi7?", "Ni3
> > > zhu4(zai4) na3li3?" "Where do you live?"
>
> > Yeah, basically my idiolect uses _dua3_ and _di7_ interchangeably when
the
> > meaning is "at". It's always _dua3_ for "live", though.
>
> Actually, this sounds vaguely familiar, though I use "di7".
>
> > Strangely, my idiolect prefers _dou2 lou2_ instead of _dou2 wi7_ for
> > "which place" or "where".
>
> We were taught "dou2wi7" in school (supposedly Taipei dialect), but I
rarely
> heard it in the streets, where "dai2" was more common (sounds suspiciously
> like a contracted form).
>
> > There also seem to have been a sound change from
> > _li2_ to _lu(35)_, so "where do you live?"
>
> Many of these distinctions in Taiwan seem to broken along a north/south
line
> ('quan2' vs. 'zhang1'). "lu2" is given as the 'quan2' version with "li2"
the
> 'zhang1'. I didn't do in-depth dialects studies, but it seemed I heard
more
> 'zhang1' forms, even in Taipei.
>
> >would be rendered as:
> >         lu1 dua3 dou2 lou2?
> > or,     lu1 dua3 di1 dou2 lou2?
> > (_lu1_ and _di1_ are sandhi'd here. :-)
>
> Li2 dua3 di7 dai2?  :)
>
> > > "hit4 e5" (nei4ge/nei4xie1), "that", when used as a pronoun.
>
> > Interesting. My idiolect must've had a sound change here as well:
> > _hit4 e5_ has become _hi1 le1_ (yes, both are tone 1, go figure).
>
> Adam mentions this, too, in a later post. I think, here, it's simply a
> matter of our using differing terms. Because "e5" and "a2" are integrally
> linked with the preceding syllable, and final "p, t, k" are unvoiced,
> unreleased consonants, when combined with "e5" and "a2", it sounds like
one
> big package with "p, t, k" sounding like "b, d, g" (unvoiced, unaspirated
> consonants). "p, b, bb" exists; "k, g, gg" exists; but the "d" of the "t,
d,
> dd" series doesn't occur and so we fill in with "l". Hence:
>
> ap8  "box"  + "a2"  "ap8a2"  ["ab-a" or "a-ba"? I think it sounds
>           like "aba", so I maintain the original romanization to avoid
>          confusion] "box"
>
> bak4 "north" + "a2" "bak4a2" [baga] person from Northern
>          (mainland) China
>
> sut4  "a little bit" + "a2"  "sut4a2" [suda => sula] scum, scuzball
>         (Adam, pay attention to this one; it comes up _a lot_)
>
> > E.g., Singaporean Hokkien (*and* my grandparents, for that matter) still
> > uses _meng5_ for "door", but my idiolect has _mui5_.
>
> Hence "Amoy".  So *that's* where that comes from.
>
> > Ditto for _seng1_,
> > "sour", --> _sui~1_.
>
> When I first saw this, I immediately thought of "suai~1a2" (mango).
There's
> an ultra sour green variety that's quasi-pickled or something and it's
> called "lover's fruit" in Mandarin, if I remember correctly. Delicious,
but
> *TART*. I doubt "suai~1" and "sui~1" are connected, but thanks for the
> mouth-watering memories.
>
> > And tone 2 is 52 in Singaporean Hokkien (and
> > Taiwanese, from my observation), but my idiolect has 24 (or 35) instead.
> > Amazing how much language can change just in two generations :-)
>
> Your idiolect makes *far* more sense to me here, since that tone (yinshang
> and yangshang) normally involves rising of some kind. Took some major
> brain-cell frying and counterintuitive readjustment to begin to produce
> these automatically in a falling tone.
>
> Mandarin: hao3
>                   v
> Shanghai:  ho5
>                  /
> Cantonese: hou2
>                    /
> Taiwanese: hou2  (Ew!)
>                    \
> I like "hou2" a lot better!
>             /
>
> Kou
>