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Mandarin demonstratives

From:laokou <laokou@...>
Date:Thursday, January 17, 2002, 2:01
From: "H. S. Teoh"

> laokou wrote:
> > I learned "di7" for "at", but dialects is dialects. The only "dua7" I
> > think of that might be cognate is "live" ("Li2 dua3 dou2 wi7?", "Ni3 > > zhu4(zai4) na3li3?" "Where do you live?"
> Yeah, basically my idiolect uses _dua3_ and _di7_ interchangeably when the > meaning is "at". It's always _dua3_ for "live", though.
Actually, this sounds vaguely familiar, though I use "di7".
> Strangely, my idiolect prefers _dou2 lou2_ instead of _dou2 wi7_ for > "which place" or "where".
We were taught "dou2wi7" in school (supposedly Taipei dialect), but I rarely heard it in the streets, where "dai2" was more common (sounds suspiciously like a contracted form).
> There also seem to have been a sound change from > _li2_ to _lu(35)_, so "where do you live?"
Many of these distinctions in Taiwan seem to broken along a north/south line ('quan2' vs. 'zhang1'). "lu2" is given as the 'quan2' version with "li2" the 'zhang1'. I didn't do in-depth dialects studies, but it seemed I heard more 'zhang1' forms, even in Taipei.
>would be rendered as: > lu1 dua3 dou2 lou2? > or, lu1 dua3 di1 dou2 lou2? > (_lu1_ and _di1_ are sandhi'd here. :-)
Li2 dua3 di7 dai2? :)
> > "hit4 e5" (nei4ge/nei4xie1), "that", when used as a pronoun.
> Interesting. My idiolect must've had a sound change here as well: > _hit4 e5_ has become _hi1 le1_ (yes, both are tone 1, go figure).
Adam mentions this, too, in a later post. I think, here, it's simply a matter of our using differing terms. Because "e5" and "a2" are integrally linked with the preceding syllable, and final "p, t, k" are unvoiced, unreleased consonants, when combined with "e5" and "a2", it sounds like one big package with "p, t, k" sounding like "b, d, g" (unvoiced, unaspirated consonants). "p, b, bb" exists; "k, g, gg" exists; but the "d" of the "t, d, dd" series doesn't occur and so we fill in with "l". Hence: ap8 "box" + "a2" "ap8a2" ["ab-a" or "a-ba"? I think it sounds like "aba", so I maintain the original romanization to avoid confusion] "box" bak4 "north" + "a2" "bak4a2" [baga] person from Northern (mainland) China sut4 "a little bit" + "a2" "sut4a2" [suda => sula] scum, scuzball (Adam, pay attention to this one; it comes up _a lot_)
> E.g., Singaporean Hokkien (*and* my grandparents, for that matter) still > uses _meng5_ for "door", but my idiolect has _mui5_.
Hence "Amoy". So *that's* where that comes from.
> Ditto for _seng1_, > "sour", --> _sui~1_.
When I first saw this, I immediately thought of "suai~1a2" (mango). There's an ultra sour green variety that's quasi-pickled or something and it's called "lover's fruit" in Mandarin, if I remember correctly. Delicious, but *TART*. I doubt "suai~1" and "sui~1" are connected, but thanks for the mouth-watering memories.
> And tone 2 is 52 in Singaporean Hokkien (and > Taiwanese, from my observation), but my idiolect has 24 (or 35) instead. > Amazing how much language can change just in two generations :-)
Your idiolect makes *far* more sense to me here, since that tone (yinshang and yangshang) normally involves rising of some kind. Took some major brain-cell frying and counterintuitive readjustment to begin to produce these automatically in a falling tone. Mandarin: hao3 v Shanghai: ho5 / Cantonese: hou2 / Taiwanese: hou2 (Ew!) \ I like "hou2" a lot better! / Kou