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Re: Gender in conlangs (was: Re: Umlauts (was Re: Elves and Ill Bethisad))

From:Costentin Cornomorus <elemtilas@...>
Date:Monday, November 3, 2003, 0:25
--- Remi Villatel <maxilys@...> wrote:
> Costentin Cornomorus wrote: > > >>My conlang has only 2 genders: "subjective" > >>and "objective". Everything is > >>"objective" except the persons, the pets and > >>the spirits. > > > What exactly do you mean by "subjective" and > > "objective"? I am sure most of us understand > > those terms to refer to noun cases.
> I'd rather say "misunderstand".
Then what exactly do you mean? You chose words that have specific connotations; subject and object are very basic ideas in linguistics. I see from below that you are choosing highly ideosyncratic linguistics terms (commendable, if you're doing it from the perspective of a native speaker of your conlang; confusing and possibly detrimental if you simply do not know the correct terms!); are these two gender names an example of this?
> These are the names of the genders in my > conlang. Just like others have > *masculine/feminine/neuter,* my conlang has > *subjective/objective.* They have nothing to do > with cases. > > I admit that the names *subjective/objective* > are badly chosen but I don't > even have native names for them because the > genders don't influence much of > the grammar. > > Almost as in English, the genders apply only to > some pronouns: > > he (m. sg.), she (f. sg.), it (n. sg.) > > taj (subj. sg.) [taj] = he/she > tlaz (subj. dual) [tlaz] = the two of them > tali (subj. pl.) [tali] = they > > daj (obj. sg.) [daj] = it > draz (obj. dual) [dxaz] = the two of them > dari (obj. pl.) [daxi] = they
So far, looks like you've got epicene (common) and neuter; s., dual and pl. for each. Dual is always interesting!
> Just for information, the cases are "sender", > "flux", "initiator", > "receiver", "circumstantial", "referential" and > "emotional". The declension > applied to the pronouns hereabove is the > "initiator" which corresponds to > agent/subject (most of the time).
These are what I mean by highly ideosyncratic. You'll have to describe exactly what each of these cases do.
> > What it looks like is your conlang has > > animate > > and inanimate genders. So does my Talarian, > > though the gender is grammatical more than > > natural. > > It doesn't work this way. Animals which are > living beings --so animate-- are > described with an *objective* pronoun.
I'm sorry, but the terms are hampering my understanding! Are you using "subjective" and "objective" in the usual, nonlinguistic sense? Like "prejudiced observation" v. "unprejudiced observation".
> They are considered (with a lot of > respect) as objects. And the same way you'll > use a *m./f.* pronoun to talk > about the family pet, the Shaqueans (my aliens) > will use a *subjective* > pronoun, as if it was a family member.
So they can be either animate/inanimate (or subjective/objective, to (probably mis-) use your terms)? What makes the difference? When is an animal subjective / objective? Why?
> The Shaqueans which are double-gendered > (hermaphrodite) like most of the > animals don't need a male/female > discrimination.
Hermaphroditity isn't required for not needing m/f distinction! Many human languages get along without. Padraic. ===== To him that seeks, if he knock, the door will be opened; if he seeks, he shall find his way; if he searches for a way, he shall find his path. For though the Way is narrow, it's wisdom is written in the hearts of all: if ye would seek and find Rest, look first within! [The Petricon] -- Ill Bethisad -- <http://www.geocities.com/elemtilas/ill_bethisad> Come visit The World! -- <http://www.geocities.com/hawessos/> .

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Remi Villatel <maxilys@...>