Re: thlIngan Hol and T-Shirt

       Greetings.  Lurker here delurking for a moment.

       I found this at the Klingon Language Institute web site:

       "The sounds of Klingon individually occur in existing Terran
       languages, but no single language uses the entire collection.
       Paramount wanted the language to be gutteral and harsh, and
       Okrand wanted it to be unusual, so he selected sounds that
       combined in ways not typically found in other languages (e.g. a
       retroflex D and a dental t, but no retroflex T or dental d)..."

       http://www.kli.org/tlh/sounds.html

       Thus, he was quite aware that no human language had such a
       pattern of sounds and constructed his phonological system
       specifically to make it seem un-human.  Just pointing out that
       he was concious of what he was doing.  Whether you like it or
       not is a different question ;).

       Daniel Andreasson wrote:

       >I don't know that much about Klingon, but I do know they have
       a really cool
        >pronoun system, which I was on the verge of copying for a
       conlang sketch of
        >mine.

       I haven't looked at Klingon in years, but I remember thinking
       that the complicated system of subject/object pronominal
       affixes were reminescent of Algonquin (and perhaps other Native
       American?) languages.  IIRC, I later read that  native American
       languages were among Okrand's inspirations.

       I'm no particular fan of Klingon per se, but it did make an
       impression on me, lo those many years ago as a pre-teen, as the
       first conlang (other than Esperanto) I had ever run across.
       As such it fascinated me, decades before I knew that there was
       such a thing as conlanging.

       Anyway, I'm glad to have found such a group of like-minded
       souls.  I may have more to say when my language is worth
       talking about.

       -Weiben Wang

       daniel andreasson <daniel.andreasson@...> AT Internet
       09/27/2000 08:20 AM

       To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU AT
       Internet@LIONSHUB@ccMTA-LIBADMIN01
       cc:
       bcc: wwang/MHT/Nypl
       Subject: Re: thlIngan Hol and T-Shirt





       Padraic Brown wrote:

       > Right. Rant: So bloody what!? Just because they can do a
       thing doesn't
       > mean they will do that thing! They're NOT HUMAN!!!!!!! Why do
       you
       > expect them to use language in the same way? Just because
       it's humans > in latex makeup? Given the fact that it's
       _humans_ that invented the > culture, the language and all the
       concepts of an alien culture _for
       > the express purpose of entertaining a broad spectrum
       audience_; I
       > think they did a pretty damned good job. Until any one of us
       can craft
       > a perfect constructed language - one that will pass for a
       natural
       > language; I think we should drop this unneccesary and
       unwaranted and
       > certainly unconstructive criticism of another's work.
       Especially
       > since the creator of Klingon isn't here on list to discuss,
       defend or > otherwise plead guilty.

       I'm sorry I made you so upset. I knew I shouldn't have sent the
       last two sentences. I just meant that the argument "Their vocal
       equipment need not resemble humans" isn't totally valid because
       they _can_ produce those sounds, even though they don't. Other
       than that, I completely agree with everything you say. Of
       course I don't expect them to use language in the same way we
       do. I didn't say I thought Klingon was a bad conlang. There are
       no bad conlangs, the same way that there are no bad natlangs.

       I don't know that much about Klingon, but I do know they have a
       really cool pronoun system, which I was on the verge of copying
       for a conlang sketch of mine.

       What I mean: Klingon's phoneme inventory looks a little strange
       from
       a human _natlang_ perspective, but all those points are invalid
       because it is an alien conlang. And I'm sure there are just as
       unusual phoneme inventories in human natlangs as well. I'm
       sorry. I should have made myself more clear from the beginning.

       > > I still think Klingon is a nice and well developed conlang
       > > which serves its purpose excellently. What I wrote above is
       of
       > > course invalid in conlanging terms. A conlang can - and
       should! - > > look however you like.

       > Thank you for ameliorating the above.

       You're welcome. :)

       On a side note: I like Nicole's way of ending the discussion as
       to Klingon's being on the t-shirt or not. Simple, effective and
       decisive. Very funny to end it with one sentence. And within
       brackets as well! :)

       And even though it's already settled: czHANg's t-shirt
       suggestion gets my vote too. It's excellent!

       Daniel