Theiling Online    Sitemap    Conlang Mailing List HQ   

Re: Number system

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Sunday, April 24, 2005, 19:54
On Sunday, April 24, 2005, at 06:38 , Gregory Gadow wrote:

> #1 wrote: >> >> What do you think of it? Does it sound natural? > > It looks good to me. > > You may be interested in looking at some of the Celtic languages like > Gaelic, Welsh and Breton; I believe they also use a base 20 counting > system.
Well, sort of .... In fact the modern Welsh system is purely & strictly decimal. The numbers from 1 to 10 are: un, dau (f. dwy), tri (f. tair), pedwar (f. pedair), pump, chwech, saith, wyth, naw, deg. 'pump' becomes 'pum' when used before a noun, and 'chwech' becomes 'cwhe'. After 10 we have: 11 un deg un 12 un deg dau 13 un deg tri etc 20 dau ddeg ['dau' causes soft mutation] 21 dau ddeg un 22 dau ddeg dau etc 30 tri deg; 40 pedair deg; 50 pum deg; 60 chwe deg etc can(t) = 100. The older 'traditional' system is partly vigesimal; it is now used in restricted contexts such as telling the time and giving one's age up to about 30. Breton AFAIK does still retain the older system in all contexts. But it is still mainly decimally based with some vigesimal bits. The Breton numbers from 1 to 10 are: unan, daou (f. div), tri (f. teir), pevar (f. pevar _or_ peder), pemp, c'hwec'h, seizh, eizh, nav, dek. BRETON & TRADITIONAL WELSH FROM 11 TO 20 The numbers from 11 to 20 in the traditional Welsh system and in Breton are: Welsh Breton 11 un ar ddeg unnek (<-- un+dek) 12 deuddeg daouzek 13 tri ar ddeg trizek 14 pedwar ar ddeg pevarzek 15 pymtheg pemzek 16 un ar bymtheg c'hwezek 17 dau ar bymtheg seitek 18 daunaw triwec'h 19 pedwar ar bymtheg naontek 20 ugain ugent Note: 1. Welsh 'ar' = "on" and causes soft mutation in the following word 2. Welsh 'deuddeg' and 'pymtheg' are fairly obviously compounds of 'dau+deg' and 'pump+deg' [sic] respectively. 3. In Breton _zek_ is the regular soft mutation of 'dek', and 'tek' is the hard mutation (Welsh doesn't have that one :) 4. All the numbers from 11 to 19 inclusive are formed from those from 1 to 10, i.e. it ain't vigesimal. The only interesting thing is 18 which in Welsh is _daunaw_ (2 x 9) and in Breton is _triwec'h_ (3 x 6), _wec'h_ being the soft mutatiion of _c'hwec'h_. 5. ugain/ ugent is derived from the same PIE root as Latin _ui:ginti:_ and Greek _eikosi_. After 20, there are vigesimal bits to both systems, but they do not exactly work the same way in both. TRADITIONAL WELSH FROM 21 TO 100 From 21 to 39 we just put the numbers 1 to 19 in front of _ar hugain_ (on 20), thus: 21 un ar hugain 22 dau ar hugain ... 30 deg ar hugain 31 un ar ddeg ar hugain 32 deuddeg ar hugain etc 40 is _deugain_ (2 x 20), but we used it only up to _naw ar ddeugain_ (49) , since: 50 is _hanner cant_ (half a hundred) 51 un ar hanner cant etc. 60 is _trigain_ 61 un ar drigain 62 dau ar drigain etc. 70 deg ar drigain 71 un ar ddeg ar drigain etc 80 is simply _pedwar ugain_ Then we just use 1 to 19 in front thus: 81 un ar bedwar ugain etc until _pedwar ar bymtheg ar bedwar ugain_ (4 on 15 on 4 twenties) 99. 100 is _cant_ BRETON FROM 21 TO 100 This is remarkably similar to French in that we count decimally through the 10s until we reach 70, which is in both languages the equivalent of "sixty ten", while in both languages 80 is "four twenties" and 90 is "four twenties ten", thus: 21 unan warn-ugent 22 daou warn-ugent etc . (_warn_ means "on" - but it's used only for the 20s) 30 tregont; 31 unan ha tregont (one and 30); daou ha tregont etc 40 daou-ugent; 41 unan ha daou-ugent; 42 daou ha daou-ugent etc 50 hanter-kant; 51 unan hag hanter-kant; 42 daou hag hanter-kant etc (_ha_ becomes _hag_ before a vowel or _h_) 60 tri-ugent; 61 unan ha tri-ugent; 62 daou ha tri-ugent etc 70 dek ha tri-ugent; 71 unnek ha tri-ugent; 72 daouzek ha tri-ugent etc 80 pevar-ugent; 81 unan ha pevar-ugent; 82 daou ha pevar-ugent etc 90 dek ha pevar-ugent; 91 unnek ha pevar-ugent; 92 daouzek ha pevar-ugent etc 100 kant In _all_ the systems above, the hundreds always precede the tens-and-units combo, the thousamds always precede the hundreds and so on.
> Traces of it can be found in English (a score of something) and > French (vignt=20; quatre-vignt=80)
I would say also that only traces of it are found in the Brittonic varieties of Insular Celtic; it's just that there's slightly more trace of it than in standard French. I believe the same is true for the Gaelic langs. But we have people on this list far more familiar with those languages than I am, so I'll leave it to them :) Ray =============================================== http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown ray.brown@freeuk.com =============================================== Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight, which is not so much a twilight of the gods as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]

Reply

Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>