> OK, it's the agentive. "Case" closed.
>
> "Define 'cynical'."-M. Mudd
>
> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
> From: R A Brown <ray@...>
> Subject: Re: case
> To: CONLANG@listserv.brown.edu
> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 7:50 AM
>
> Eldin Raigmore wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:49:43 -0800, Campbell Nilsen
>> <cactus95@...> wrote:
>>> Right, right. But the instrumental is ONLY used in "by means
> of"
>>> consttructions. This case is used for ONLY ONE[save prespositional]
> PURPOSE.
>>> [snip]
>
> This is not true of the instrumental case in Russian. In IE languages
> with case system, each case normally has more than one use.
>
>> You're wondering what to do with demoted agents, or rather, what to
> call
>> what you do with them.
>>
>> Most nominative-accusative languages with passivization, in which the
>> demoted agent may or must be explicit, put it in a case used for something
>
>> else as well; instrumental, or perlative, or prolative, or prosecutive, or
> vialis,
>
> It's always AFAIK a case also used for something else (I haven't heard
> of the last two cases listed above). Also, I believe, a distinction is
> made between demoted animate & inanimate subjects, e.g.
>
> (a) He was hit on the head _by a rock_ (<-- A rock hit him on the head).
> (b) He was hit on the head by an intruder (<-- An intruder hit him on
> the head).
>
> In Latin 'by a rock' is just the plain ablative case, whereas 'by
> an
> intruder' is the preposition _a/ab_ followed by the ablative case.
>
> In ancient Greek 'by a rock' is just the plain dative case (Greek had
> no
> ablative), whereas 'by an intruder' is _hypo_ followed by the genitive
> case.
>
> In both languages, 'by a rock' is treated in exactly the same way as
> any
> any other _instrumental_ phrase, i.e. the same as 'with a rock' in,
> say,
> 'He struck the intruder with a rock.' But the animate agent is
> translated by a preposition followed by the case demanded by that
> preposition.
>
> If you want a specific case for an animate agent of a passive, then the
> obvious name is surely _agentive_ as, indeed:
>
> phil@PHILLIPDRISCOLL.COM wrote:
> [snip]
> > If you mean constructions such as "The ball was kicked
> > by the girl" where "girl" is in the special case, how
> > about "agentive case"?
>
> Amen.
> ====================================
>
> David J. Peterson wrote:
> > Actually, I think it's usually called the objective, though
> > I have seen it called non-nominative.
> [snip]
>
> > On Nov 10, 2008, at 4∞33 PM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> >
> >> Isn't that what English's all-purpose non-nominative case is
> called as
> >> well?
>
> >>
> >> On 11/10/08, David J. Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
> >>> The traditional name in the literature is "oblique".
>
> Traditionally all cases except the nominative (the 'casus rectus', i.e.
>
> 'upright case') have been called 'oblique cases'.
>
> Where, as for example in Old French & Old Provençal, one has a two case
> system - nominative & 'non-nominative' - the latter is normally
> called
> the 'oblique case'.
>
> IME English is said to have three cases: Nominative, Objective &
> Possessive. If one counts the possessive as a case, then both the
> objective & the possessive are 'oblique cases'.
>
> But the behavior of the possessive _'s_ is as an clitic rather than a
> fusional case ending, so I guess one could then regard English as having
> just a nominative & oblique. But that seems to me somewhat illogical
> because if the possessive is excluded, surely English nouns are
> caseless! Only personal pronouns then show case distinctions - and they
> certainly have possessive forms!
>
> Personal pronouns, indeed, often have a more elaborate case system than
> nouns, e.g. in Old French & Old Provençal while nouns had only two
> cases, the 3rd person pronouns had three, since they retained (as they
> still do) special forms for the indirect object (i.e. dative).
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
>
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> Frustra fit per plura quod potest
> fieri per pauciora.
> [William of Ockham]
>