Re: THEORY: The fourth person

Racsko Tamas <tracsko@...> wrote:

On 29 Apr 2004 takatunu <takatunu@...> wrote:
<<<<
> In Japanese the linking tag between two predicates whose subjects are
> different people is (in theory) -to instead of -te/de:
>
> Kare wa uta wo utau to kanojo wa odoru.
> He sings and (then) she dances.
>
> Kare wa uta wo utatte odoru.
> He sings and dances.
I think the above is a bit different from the "4th person".
>>>>
True, I was not referring to 4th person anymore.

<<<<
The "te"-
form is similar to the  European non-finite verbal forms: it must be
placed in a slot of another verb. Therefore it has no own subject.
<<<<

I don't think so. "utatte" has "kare" as subject.

<<<<
While "to" is a simple postpositive conjuction -- like Latin -que --
between to separate clauses that has their own finite verb.
  Your second example can be rendered to an "isomorphic" sentence: _He
dances while singing a song._
>>>>
Not necessarily. It may show simultaneity (as in utainagara) as well as
several stages (as in utatte kara) or else (as in utattari shite.)
There are several possibilities.

<<<
Of course this must be restructured even
in English when there's two diferent subjects for the different
actions: _He sings a song and she dances_.
  And the above transformation takes place even when the first agent is
"me" and the second one is "you". And this doesn't happen in languages
with obviative markers.
  Watashi wa uta wo utau _to_ *anata wa odoru.
  I sing a song _and_ you dance.
  Watasi wa uta wo _utatte_ odoru.
  I sing a song and dance. (Lit. I dance _while singing_ a song.)
  (* I know *anata 'you' occurs only in grammatical examples and much
more less in the living language. This this was a 'must' the build
utterances parallel with English.)
>>>
You lost me here: I fail to see what's different from what I wrote
previously.
I'd say "Uta wo utattara/utakya odotte kurenai ka?" if it's a suggestion or
"Uta wo utau to odotte kureru" if it's a statement.

Anyway, I have the feeling that Japanese threads are like the English ones:
Nobody will change his habits for so much.

µ.
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