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Re: THEORY: The fourth person

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Thursday, April 29, 2004, 18:44
On Thursday, April 29, 2004, at 12:28 AM, Danny Wier wrote:

[snip]
> I wonder if there could be such thing as a FIFTH person... maybe in > bitransitive verbs, like something translating to "he sent him to him"?
Latin would use three _different_ pronouns (or two different if the subject pronoun were not expressed); exactly which of its several demonstrative/3rd person pronouns would depend upon context. But no one has found it helpful to analyze Latin in terms of 4th & 5th persons. There must be more to it than just having different pronouns for 'he', 'him' and 'him' in the above sentence. ========================================================================= On Thursday, April 29, 2004, at 01:52 AM, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi! > > Jean-François Colson <fa597525@...> writes: >> ... >> Is that somewhat similar to the French pronoun "on", the German "man", >> the >> Dutch "men", etc.? > > It is similar in that it might express the same or a closely related > idea, but it is different in that the languages you mention use 3rd > person morphologically, instead of using a distinct 4th person > (e.g. as an inflection on the verb).
But all the examples below have the same verb.
> E.g. Westgreenlandic (yes, I am currently sincerely addicted to it): > > Nanummit nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by a polar bear. > Nanunnit nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by my polar bear. > Nanunniit nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by your polar bear. > Nanuminit nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by his(own) polar bear. > Nanuanit nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by his(someone else's) polar > bear. >
In Latin (for simplicity I'm making it just any ol' bear, not specifically a polar one, and assuming it's a male 'ursus' & not a female 'ursa' - tho I don't suppose it makes any difference to the person being eaten :) ab urso estur ab urso meo estur ab urso tuo estur ab urso suo estur ab urso eius estur
> The verb is always: > > nerineqarpoq > 'niri-niqaq-Vu-q' > eat-PASSIVE-IND-3s
The verb is always: e:stur eat-IND-PASSIVE3s
> The forms of 'nanuq' - 'polar bear' break down as follows (all are > ablative oblique expressing the agent of the the passive verb phrase): > > nanummit / nanunnit / nanunniit / nanuminit / nanuanit
Latin also uses the ablative, tho preceded by 'ab' to mark out the use of the ablative as agent; the only radical difference is that possession is shown by a separate word, not by a suffix. Indeed, Latin can distinguish even more: ab urso huius estur "he is eaten by his [the person I've just been talking about, not the guy I mentioned earlier] bear" ab urso illius estur "he is eaten by his [the person I was talking about earier, not the guy I've just been speaking about] bear" ab urso istius estur "he is eaten by his [the person you keep talking about] bear But we never speak of 4th person in Latin. So there must surely by more to it than just being able to distinguish reflexive from non-reflexive 3rd persons or being able to distinguish between one 'him' and another. [snip]
> However, I thought French 'on' is used for 3rd person plural, i.e. > 'we', in modern usage.
'tis often the case French uses 'on' where we would use a fairly generic 'we'/'us' in English.
> PS: As usual, I must admit that I am just a learner of Westgreenlandic > and that all examples are produces of myself and are not approved > by any native speaker. Don't hit me if the examples are wrong, > please inform me instead.
Similarly, don't hit me because I seem obtuse on the 4th person business. I really want to know. Ray =============================================== http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown ray.brown@freeuk.com (home) raymond.brown@kingston-college.ac.uk (work) =============================================== "A mind which thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language." J.G. Hamann, 1760

Replies

Tim May <butsuri@...>
Michael Poxon <m.poxon@...>
Henrik Theiling <theiling@...>