Re: THEORY: The fourth person

On Thursday, April 29, 2004, at 12:28 AM, Danny Wier wrote:

[snip]
> I wonder if there could be such thing as a FIFTH person... maybe in
> bitransitive verbs, like something translating to "he sent him to him"?
Latin would use three _different_ pronouns (or two different if the
subject pronoun were not expressed); exactly which of its several
demonstrative/3rd person pronouns would depend upon context.

But no one has found it helpful to analyze Latin in terms of 4th & 5th
persons. There must be more to it than just having different pronouns for
'he', 'him' and 'him' in the above sentence.
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On Thursday, April 29, 2004, at 01:52 AM, Henrik Theiling wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Jean-François Colson <fa597525@...> writes:
>> ...
>> Is that somewhat similar to the French pronoun "on", the German "man",
>> the
>> Dutch "men", etc.?
>
> It is similar in that it might express the same or a closely related
> idea, but it is different in that the languages you mention use 3rd
> person morphologically, instead of using a distinct 4th person
> (e.g. as an inflection on the verb).
But all the examples below have the same verb.

> E.g. Westgreenlandic (yes, I am currently sincerely addicted to it):
>
>    Nanummit  nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by a polar bear.
>    Nanunnit  nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by my polar bear.
>    Nanunniit nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by your polar bear.
>    Nanuminit nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by his(own) polar bear.
>    Nanuanit  nerineqarpoq. - He is eaten by his(someone else's) polar
> bear.
>
In Latin (for simplicity I'm making it just any ol' bear, not specifically
a polar one, and assuming it's a male 'ursus' & not a female 'ursa' - tho
I don't suppose it makes any difference to the person being eaten :)
	ab urso estur
	ab urso meo estur
	ab urso tuo estur
	ab urso suo estur
	ab urso eius estur

> The verb is always:
>
>    nerineqarpoq
>    'niri-niqaq-Vu-q'
>    eat-PASSIVE-IND-3s
The verb is always:
	e:stur
	eat-IND-PASSIVE3s

> The forms of 'nanuq' - 'polar bear' break down as follows (all are
> ablative oblique expressing the agent of the the passive verb phrase):
>
>    nanummit / nanunnit / nanunniit / nanuminit / nanuanit
Latin also uses the ablative, tho preceded by 'ab' to mark out the use of
the ablative as agent; the only radical difference is that possession is
shown by a separate word, not by a suffix.

Indeed, Latin can distinguish even more:
	ab urso huius estur
	"he is eaten by his [the person I've just been talking about, not the
guy I mentioned earlier] bear"

	ab urso illius estur
	"he is eaten by his [the person I was talking about earier, not the
guy I've just been speaking about] bear"

	ab urso istius estur
	"he is eaten by his [the person you keep talking about] bear

But we never speak of 4th person in Latin. So there must surely by more to
it than just being able to distinguish reflexive from non-reflexive 3rd
persons or being able to distinguish between one 'him' and another.


[snip]

> However, I thought French 'on' is used for 3rd person plural, i.e.
> 'we', in modern usage.
'tis often the case French uses 'on' where we would use a fairly generic
'we'/'us' in English.


> PS: As usual, I must admit that I am just a learner of Westgreenlandic
>     and that all examples are produces of myself and are not approved
>     by any native speaker.  Don't hit me if the examples are wrong,
>     please inform me instead.
Similarly, don't hit me because I seem obtuse on the 4th person business.
I really want to know.


Ray
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