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CHAT translating the Paternoster (was: Liturgical thou/thee etc.(was: Thorn vs Eth))

From:Nik Taylor <fortytwo@...>
Date:Sunday, July 14, 2002, 23:42
Ray Brown wrote:
> Yes, but 'may' still seems to me to imply 'wish' which is rather more > remote than the imperatives of the Greek.
"May" to me doesn't necessarily imply "wish", at least, not as I use the word "wish". Altho, "let" would be better, I think. For me, at least, "let" can serve as a kind of optative/imperative. In prayer, I would say something like "God, please let ..." followed by my request. So, I might have: Let your name be made holy, Your kingdom come, And your will be done, on Earth as it is in heaven.
> > (I find _lead us not_ a bit odd, at least if you're trying to modernize > > it) > > Indeed so.
I don't find it too odd. Like I said earlier, postposed "not" can still be used in Contemporary English in a contrasting situation, like "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." I know I've used that construction on a few cases, but I can't think of any examples off-head. Also, "Do not lead us into temptation" sounds to me overly abrupt, almost rude, like a demand rather than a request.
> Where does "for ever and ever" come from? It ain't there in the Greek > (nor the Latin).
Part of the doxology. Tho, why it would be used and not the rest of it, I'm not sure.
> True - but outside of rhetorical and similar styles it is not normal. If > we accept > postponed "not" because it's still occasionally used in rhetoric, verse > etc., then > there is surely reason not to allow the simple: > "Your name be hallowed; > your kingdom come; > you will be done....etc"
Maybe I have a weird idiolect, but postposed not is rare, but not archaic for me (I've been known to use it on a few occasions), while the third person imperatives are archaic, only used in fixed phrases like "God bless" or "God forbid". Actually, except for the Lord's Prayer, I can't really think of any uses of 3rd person imperatives that don't use "God". -- "There's no such thing as 'cool'. Everyone's just a big dork or nerd, you just have to find people who are dorky the same way you are." - overheard ICQ: 18656696 AIM Screen-Name: NikTaylor42