Theiling Online    Sitemap    Conlang Mailing List HQ   

CHAT translating the Paternoster (was: Liturgical thou/thee etc. (was: Thorn vs Eth))

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Sunday, July 14, 2002, 16:03
On Saturday, July 13, 2002, at 12:09 , Elliott Lash wrote:

> In a message dated Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:48:22 +1000, kesuari@YAHOO.COM.AU > writes: > >> >> >> On Sat, 2002-07-13 at 16:20, Joe wrote: >> >>> Our Father in Heaven >>> May your name be called holy
'called holy'? That's not what I understand by the verb "to hallow" or the Greek verb _hagiázein_. "To hallow" surely means 'to make [something] sacred/holy', 'to consecrate' ? That is certainly what the Greek verb means and, in the pagan religion, it referred especially to the process of making something sacred by _sacrificing_ it. That too is what the Latin 'sanctificare' means; and that is the the verb used in the traditional Latin form: 'Sanctificetur nomen tuum'
>>> May your Kingdom come >>> May your will be done >> >> Too stilted for me.
Yes, the repetitions of 'may' are infelicitous.
>> May your name be called holy, >> Your Kingdom come, >> (And) your will be done >> >> Is better, IMHO > > yes, good.
Yes, but 'may' still seems to me to imply 'wish' which is rather more remote than the imperatives of the Greek. We seem to have lost in our language the differences between what Greek could distinguish with optative, subjunctive and imperative. I suppose this is the best we can do in modern English.
>> >>> On Earth as it is in heaven >>> Give us today our daily bread >>> And forgive us our sins >>> As we forgive those who sin against us
Yep, most versions seem to perpetuate the present tense of the Latin: 'sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris' The best Greek texts however use the _present perfect_ : ho:s kaì he:meîs aphé:kamen toîs opheilétais he:mô:n The old Greek perfect denoted a current or present state resulting from a past action: 'we have already forgiven those who owe us anything and now bear no grudges against them nor have any claims on them'. The Latin 'perfect' _demisimus_ could just mean "we forgave them"/ "we've forgiven them" [but they have since offended us, so still owe us something] , i.e. it does not make any implicit statement about the _present_ situation. That, I guess, is why the Latin versions have always AFAIK had _dimittimus_. But the Greek does seem to put a greater commitment on those saying the prayer than does the sort of generic present 'dimittimus' of the Latin which all the English versions proposed so far on this list stick with.
>>> Lead us not into temptation, > > Don't lead us into temptation (?) > > (I find _lead us not_ a bit odd, at least if you're trying to modernize > it)
Indeed so.
>>> But deliver us from evil >>> For ever and ever, Amen >>> >>> Modern Version.
Where does "for ever and ever" come from? It ain't there in the Greek (nor the Latin). So 'apò toû pone:roû' is definitely 'from evil' and not 'from the evil one' ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Saturday, July 13, 2002, at 12:13 , Nik Taylor wrote:
> Elliott Lash wrote: >> (I find _lead us not_ a bit odd, at least if you're trying to modernize >> it) > > Postposed "not" is still occasionally used, as in JFK's famous "Ask not > what your country can do for you ..."
True - but outside of rhetorical and similar styles it is not normal. If we accept postponed "not" because it's still occasionally used in rhetoric, verse etc., then there is surely reason not to allow the simple: "Your name be hallowed; your kingdom come; you will be done....etc" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the above seems to show me is why, although a modern version was proposed for public worship some 30 or so years back, congregations still prefer to stick with traditional forms. In any case, whatever we say on Conlang will not change one whit what people do in public worship. if translating the Paternoster is of interest, shouldn't the proper concern of this list be translating it into one's conlang? Ray.


Nik Taylor <fortytwo@...>CHAT translating the Paternoster (was: Liturgical thou/thee etc.(was: Thorn vs Eth))
Matthew Kehrt <matrix14@...>CHAT translating the Paternoster (was: Liturgical thou/thee etc. (was:Thorn vs Eth))