Group Conlang

Mathias M. Lassailly wrote:

>You just have to coin to affixes :
>
>one showing that the predicate uses an Aspective root verb (A)
>
>one showing that the predicate uses an Unaspective root noun (U)
>
>kjak-A (to bite) >< kjak-U (a bit)
>
>di-kjak-A : to bite >< di-kjak-U (to make a bit)
>
>It lokks maybe odd, but it's lintiguistically well known and VERY EASY :-)
It is. But it's not necessary! In this case, for example,
the context should tell you if the nominal form of kjak-
means "the action of biting" or "the effects of biting".

>
>Modifiers incorporate themselves inherently the 'case tag' :
>
>'a bitten (leg)' incorporates already the 'pe-' patientive as 'P' :
>
>pe-jol di-kjake > mu-kjake-P (a-jolo)
>the leg is bitten > the bit-TEN leg
>
>'a biter (dog)' incorporates the 'R-' ergative as 'R'  :
>
>a-frar pe-jol di-kjake >  mu-kjake-R a-frar
>the dog bites the leg > the bit-ING dog
I agree with the idea of marking a modifier as ergative
or patientive. This should be done by agglutinating the
case prefixes

muwakjako afraro [...]
the biting dog   (does something)

where mu- "modifier", a- "agent" (separated by a glide -w-).
Note gender agreement.

>
>The suffix -P/S is a way to make a phrase a modifier.
>
>Nouns integrate the case even deeper, in the unaspective form :
>
>*the bit-TEN : a-kjake-P
>the bit-ER : a-kjake-R
>
apekjako "the bitten (one) [does something]"
a- "agent" pe- "patient"

that is a- [pe- kjak-] -o, you can change a- for pe- and make

awakjako pepekjako dikjake
"The biter bites the bitten one"

where awakjako = a- [a- kjak-] -o, i. e. the agent of the biting
is the agent of the (another) biting.

You can't take this too far tho. IMO we should have simple
derivations like English -er, -or for agents and leave the
case system alone.


[snip]
>So both H & C would have NO PROBLEM using the same words in the same language, H thinking he's
>deriving noun from verb and C thinking reversely
>
>BUT
>
>To do that with unergative instruments and results, you need do something special :
>
>H : to be the seat of >< the seat : C
>
>not : to sit on >/< the seat
>
>H : to be the fruit of >< the fruit : C
>
>not : to bear fruit >/< the fruit : C
>
>In other words, H must accept that the verbal root is deponent, not active when
>C derives this verb
>from unergative instruments and results
>and C must accept that unergative instruments and results derive into deponent verbs, not ergative
>ones.
>
>I'm not inventing anything here.
>
>I'm describing the origin of unergative and antipassive forms in ergative
>languages drifting towards a
>nominative system.
>
>NOW, do you want to know why ?
>
>This is because C goes from UNASPECTIVE nouns into ASPECTIVE verbs
>
>while H goes from ASPECTIVE verb register into UNASPECTIVE noun register :
>
>H : 'to bite' (asp) > 'the bit' (unasp)
>C : 'a bit' (unasp) > 'to bite' (asp)
>
>So you need TAG the U/A REGISTER on the ROOT to say
>
>'hey, I'm speaking of the noun embodying the action' (U)
>
>or
>
>'hey, I'm speaking of the action embodied by that noun' (A)
>
>The predicate di- alone CANNOT do that.
I repeat my previous opinions: we don't need U/A tags because
common sense when creating the word and context when using it
should tell you which one is it. If you want to make things clear,
write glosses like these:

XXXX- "to sit, a seat"
YYYY- "a fruit, to give fruit"

If you want to say "the action of sitting", use pred-XXXX "to sit"
plus the case tag corresponding to it as a nominal root. For example

"Sitting here is not allowed"
(here) theme-pred-to_sit neg-pred-allow.passive

"allow" would be glossed "to allow, a permission"


>NOW you don't give any example for subclauses, and that's unfortunately the main
>reason why SOV is SO
>difficult for Europeans to speak :
>
>'the dog who-m I painted red bites me'
>
>Then you have :
>
>a-si di-wiv-ul a-fraro pe-si di-kjake
I would say

a asi pefraro diwivul apiko pesi dikjake

The first "a" tells you there's another a-prefixed pronoun later
(in a-pik-o, where pik- is a "relative pronoun").


>I told PABLO about 'resumptive pronouns' used in spoken Japanese, but actually
>he managed something
>different :
>
>We mean : the head the subclause is like the theme of a main clausE :
>
>ti = who/which = the latter one
>
>ki = who/which = the former one
>
>'ti' and 'ki' both mean 'the dog' (fraro) in the two following examples :
>
>a-fraro pe-ti a-si di-wivul pe-si di-kjake
>
>'the dog who-m I painted red bites me'
>
>fraro pe-ti a-si di-wivul a-ki pe-si di-kjake
>
>'the dog who-m I painted red, he bites me'
>
I like this one. Shouldn't it be  _afraro peti ..._
so that it agrees with _aki_?

a-fraro [a-si pe-ti di-wivul] a-ki pe-si di-kjake
|                             ^
|                             |
 \___________________________/

If this is OK, I'd drop my separable case tags
proposal.

But here's another idea: why not use two relativizing
morphemes? Say gi- to prefix the phrase first, then
gij- as a relative pronoun standing for it then.

a-si pe-gi-fraro diwivul a-gij-o pe-si di-kjake
"The dog-that I painted red, he bites me"


(zu- = theme)

[[a-si pe-gi-fraro diwivul] a-gij-o pe-si di-gi-kjake] a-si zu-gij-e di-kite

[[The dog-that I painted red] it that-it-bites me] I see it

Think of it as a pointer. The gi- prefix marks the "address" where you're
going to find the phrase you're referring to. When you need it, you reference
it by using gij-.


About the modifiers:

mufraro zukjako diqaunul
"The dog's bite was hard"
(More like "referring to the dog, the bite was hard")

If you see this as ambiguous, we could have as you proposed:

muwafraro zudikjako diqaunul
"The made-by-the-dog action-of-biting was hard"

with the dog first marked as "agent", and the bite marked
as the predicate (i. e. the action performed by the agent).

Another (classical) example:

"the fear of the enemy"
mod-agent-enemy pred-fear      "fear caused by the enemy"
mod-undergoer-enemy pred-fear  "fear felt by the enemy"



>I suggest two structures :
>
>one subclause structure with pronouns
>
>one modifier structure : adjectives mu- and adverbs su-
I agree on the subclause structure (the way I proposed it :)
I'm not sure if morphologically distinguishing between adjectives
and adverbs is necessary. In the worst case, we could make
nominal modifiers agree in gender, and verbal modifiers agree
in tense or aspect. And there must be some kind of word order!


To everybody: I think it's time that we decide on some basic
issues, namely gender, evidence, tense, and aspect. I'll restate
my proposal with a slight modification:


Gender (for "nouns" and maybe agreeing modifiers)

person (sentient being)
animate (animal or vegetal)
thing (physically perceivable)
concept (an action or abstract object)


Evidence (for all PoS's)

actually perceived (you saw it/listened to it/etc.)
indirectly perceived (i. e. by its effects)
hearsay (they told you about it)
hypothetical (you don't imply it's real or it happened)

These would be suffixed. Gender would be compulsory,
not evidence (and evidence would go first,
root + [evid_tag] + gender_tag)


--Pablo Flores

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