Re: Have Had, Had Have (Was Re: Posting limits)

Nik wrote (quoting me):

<<> To continue that sentence, "If I had wanted to go, I would've had
> gone."
Is there any difference between this and "I would've gone"?  Or is it
simply that you use that *instead of* a simple "would've gone"?>>

Well, the thing is I'm not sure that you even *could* continue the
sentence the way I suggested--that's just what it would seem to
demand.   *That*, in turn, suggested to me that "would've" might
be a beast all it's own, and that this sentence had something different
going on.

As far as my judgment goes, there is a difference between the two
sentences (the one I continued and the one you suggested), but I don't
think I could ever produce the continuation I did.   I simply did so to try
to tease out my thoughts on "would've".   This isn't a situation where I'd
use the "would've had to've had" construction.   This is because there's
only one past tense reference point.   Or maybe there's two...   Well, if
there *is* two, they're in the wrong order: The earlier time is supposed
to come first, not second.   [This is because wanting to go ordinarily
precedes going.]

Perhaps part of what's wrong with this is I'd be much more likely to say,
"If I would have wanted to go, I would have gone".   Now the modals
match.   Not to say the original example is ungrammatical--by no means.
Just dispreferred.

You know, I'm just not sure.   The whole matter definitely requires more
thought--and definitely more tokens to look at from different speakers.

-David
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