Re: TRANSLATION: Grandfather and the dragon

Oops, this was meant for the entire list...

* Sally Caves (scaves@frontiernet.net) [990714 05:37]:
> taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> >=20
> > I tried sending this on thursday last week, but it never seemed to
> > reach the list, so here's the second attempt :)
> >=20
> >=20
> > ka=ECrfa=EC a gva=ECr
>=20
> I like the internal rhyme, here.  What is your language called,
> Tal?
The rhyme was not intended, I simply like /a=EC/ very much. Shows in=20
the lexicon.

An alternate way of saying the above:

ka=ECrfa=ECgva=ECro=EC

<-o=EC> being the suffix-form of the conjunction.

As for a name, Matthias already answered that.

> > ka=ECrfa=ECdudjal:; i:ru djinra e=ECcavy
> > i: xvua=ECc ry=FA's; rael:ia
> > a=F2 i: xvu 'ryc; syel:ia
> > a=F2 i: xvu ly=E8's; ju:ar:in: vaeren a ka=ECrfa=EC ct'a=EBlan:
> > i:el 'syardris djin xvu ksy's; k'a:on; ta'aon; brenon; a tiron
> > i:ruel ksy'seles tca'ra ge=E0lar:ei=F0 ga=ECnrui=F0 e=ECcai=F0es
> >=20
> > "Grandfather and the dragon
> >=20
> > When my great-great-grandfather was a young man, he travelled out
> >   into the world.
> > First he went west; there was only sand there.
> > Then he went north; there was only snow there.
> > Then he went east; there the mountains were too high and
> >   great-great-grandfather couldn't climb them.
> > At last he decided to travel south, on foot, on horseback, by cart an=
d
> >   by boat.
> > In the south he saw the largest city in all the world."
> >=20
> > Orthographic and phon(etic|ologic) notes:
/two long paragraphs snipped/=20
=20
> If you've got the equipment, Tal, and I know you do! <G> it would be
> easier for me to conceptualize this if you made a realplayer file
> (.ra, not .rm!) and read it.  This is so hard to contain in my head.
I don't have realproducer, but I could make a .wav or .mp3... ;)=20

> > ka=ECrfa=EC       a    gva=ECr
> > ka=ECr - fa=EC    a    gva=ECr
> > 4    - parent and  "dragon"
>=20
/snip Sally's theory on ka=ECrfa=EC/

> > ka=ECrfa=ECdudjal:;                  i:ru
> > ka=ECr - fa=EC    -du       =3Ddjal:   i:   -ru
> > 4    - parent -young    =3Dtime_of 3s.+ -LOC.g
> >=20
> > djinra       e=ECcavy
> > djin   -ra   e=ECca  -vy
> > travel -PAST world -LOC.moving.fixed
> >=20
> > "When my great-great-grandfather was a young man, he travelled out
> > into the world."
>=20
> Ooch... my theory was wrong.  Four-parent now seems to express parent
> once removed three times. =20
Yup, you count generations backwards, yourself being gen. 0.
According to Irina, the great-great-grand-father really is used=20
to mean 'ancestor', well, I don't have a word for ancestor yet...

> Where is the concept "my" expressed in your=20
> language?
I thought it implicit and unnecessary. Whose gramps could it be?

'my', if the thing is animate, is <te>. If the thing is inanimate,=20
you use a genitive-construction. A have-construction is also a=20
possibility.

te tci
my friend

u: te tci
tci te u:
your friend (NB! u: =3D 2nd person singular)

tciru u:es
You have a friend
(A friend is located relative to you)

brene=F0
my car

u:ev brene=F0
your car

<-ev> and <-e=F0> are the genitive-markers, possessor-possessed.

sa:es brenru
I have a car
(A car is loacted relative to me)

As you can see, most of the time the first person singular pronoun is=20
implicit.

> > i:   xvua=ECc          ry=FA's; rael:ia
> > i:   xvu      -a=ECc   ry=FA's  rael: =3Dia
> > 3s.+ approach -first west   sand  =3Dland.of
> >=20
> > "First he went west; there was only sand there."
> >
> Now this I like.  I like the asyndesis, or lack of connection,
> or whatever you want to call it.  Welsh and Hebrew have that
> laconicity sometimes in juxtaposed clauses.  The king came to
> the land.  And its burning.  First he went west.  Land of sand.
> You seem to add the more "explicit" material in the translation.
The translation is copied directly from Irina's original. I like haikus,
and chipping away at something until only the essence of it remains.
Smalltalk, bleah.

/snip more of the translation/
> > i:ruel           ksy'seles       tca'ra
> > i:   -ru    -el  ksy's -el  -es  tca' -ra
> > 3s.+ -LOC.g -EXP south -EXP -LOC see  -PAST
> >=20
> > ge=E0lar:ei=F0         ga=ECnrui=F0          e=ECcai=F0es
> > ge=E0l -ar:e   -i=F0   ga=ECn -ru    -i=F0   e=ECca  -i=F0   -es
> > big  -most   -BEN  city -LOC.g -BEN  world -BEN  -LOC
> >=20
> > "In the south he saw the largest city in all the world."
> >=20
> > [*] The experiencer (EXP) marks the subject, if an agent and animate
> > of verbs of the experiencer paradigm. Experiencer-verbs (daft name bu=
t
> > I haven't bothered looking for a better one yet)
>=20
> I BEG YOUR PARDON!!  (just kidding!)  I use the term "experiencer"
> to get the symbol (E), so as to avoid the symbol (S), which I was
> using to mean "participant," because in modern linguistic parlance
> it means "subject of an intransitive verb."  So many of my experiencer
> verbs were transitive that I had to make that switch.  I can't remember
> who suggested the term to me, but there is probably something inherentl=
y
> wrong in every term I choose. =20
Bah. You only have to browse Trask's dictionaries to get a feel of the
jargon-war bubbling right under the surface :)

> This one, though, in your use of it, seems legit.
Not really, the same construction doubles for a causative, and turns
intransitive verbs into transitives, take a stative verb for instance:

o  is:e
it is_closed

u:el is:eac oi=F0
you  close  it

<-ac> turns a regular verb into an experiencer-verb.

/snip more on experiencers/
> > When the experiencer-verb only governs a phrase and not a new sentenc=
e,
> > that phrase is marked with the benefactive (BEN).
> >=20
> > Example:
> > sa:el a:r         u:  te=EC  i:a=FE
> > I-EXP thinks.that you love he/she-PAT   (PAT patient)
To make matters sligthly clearer:

I-EXP thinks.that (you love he/she-PAT)

This is the primary use of experiencer-verbs, the BEN-use is a side-
effect, though a nice one.

> > u:el    te=EC  i:i=F0
> > you-EXP love he/she-BEN
>=20
> This is actually very much like Tokana, which I think is patterning
> itself in this instance after several active languages that put the
> subject of "experiencer" verbs in the dative.
Humm, isn't the beloved an 'object of affectations' and not a subject=20
of same?=20
:)

> Interesting language, Taliesin.  Again, what do you call it?
Thanks, and the name is ta:ruven. It's my main (read: only) conlanging-
project, the reason why I'm on this list in the first place.


tal.