Re: Ashamed of [T]? (fy: /T/ -> /t_d/?)

On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 10:58:25AM -0500, Sally Caves wrote:
> Where were you trained?  I learned Spanish in Southern California.
Middle Georgia.  But my instructor was a Cuban emigré - from the initial
exodus after Castro took over.

> Much "eastern" Latin American Spanish drops final "s," I find.  Among the
> Puerto Ricans, I think, and also the Argentinians.  (Am I correct?).  So
> that often I'll hear buena noche for buenas noches.  Is it also a Cuban
> trait?  (it makes comprehension fiendish for me).
Yup.  It's not quite dropped, though; it's said to be "aspirated", and turns
into an [h] - but for most native English speakers, a final [h] might as
well be silent.  "Hasta luego!" comes out as [,ahta'lweGo] in normal
speech.  In rapid speech I'm convinced the [h] does disappear utterly,
and the [G] softens even more until it's an approximant instead of a
fricative, but I have no idea how one would write that in CXS vel sim.

> Me, too.  Even though I share with you a visual memory of language (that's
> interesting, isn't it?), the temptation to turn all /s/ sounds into /T/ when
> I'm "practicing" Castillian is hard to fight.  The final "s" in zapatos I
> usually pronounce the same as the initial "z."
I "practice" Castilian by singing my personal no-doubt-incorrect
translation of "99 bottles of beer on the wall":

        Noventa y nueve botellas de cerveza en la pared

etc.  Every line includes |ll| (which varies between [j] and [Z] in my
automatic faux-Cuban accent, but is [L] when I'm trying to sound
Castilian), an [s],  and two [T]s, plus whatever you get from the
number.  The numbers provide lots of practice for keeping [s]s and [T]s
straight, with entries like "sesenta y cinco", "cincuenta y siete",
etc.

> But I produce spoonerisms, too, in my native language.  Kelen Heller.
> (I almost typed that below!)
Ah, yes, Kellen Heller, the poor dind and bleaf child.   The Wiracle
Mirker is a great play/movie.  How old were you when you played the
part?

> In English, I can see the words as I speak them written out before me, and I
> can fake typing them (on a table), at a slightly slower speed than I speak
> them.  I used to know the alphabet in American Sign Language (I played Helen
> Keller in _The Miracle Worker_ ) and for years, I'd spell out compulsively
> with my hands words that I was thinking or saying.  (I learned to drop that
> unacceptable behavior!!)
Yeah, I used to fake-type in class when I was bored in high school -
usually graffiti ( "Mark Reed was here but now he's gone / He left his
name to  carry on / Those who knew him, knew him well / Those who didn't
can go to Hell." and other such fun stuff.  I plead teenagerhood).
I even used to notice when I missed a "key" and backspace to correct it.

I know the fingerspelling alphabet, too, but I've never had the habit of
spelling in the air as I spoke.

> In foreign languages, I see the words written in my head before I utter
> them.
Yup.

> But what's interesting is that I also need to see them written out in
> the air when someone else is speaking, and that doesn't happen as easily.
> Aural comprehension must take place in a different section of the brain's
> language center, and for me, perfect aural comprehension of a foreign
> language is the last and hardest skill to achieve.
Absolutely.  It took me forever to get to native speed in my listening
comprehension of Spanish, and it was the first skill to disappear with
disuse.  Now when I turn on Spanish radio stations or television programs
they might as well be speaking Etruscan for all I can understand them.

> I suppose if I were asked to make a "raspberry" for a phoneme in a
> hypothetical foreign language whose culture accepted and encouraged the
> spray of saliva, I'd probably laugh, and feel some reluctance.  But I would
> have to accept it.
That was the example that came to my mind, too.  Still not disgusting,
though.  :)

-Marcos

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