Re: Chris, Chris and Chris

On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Christopher B Wright wrote:

> John Cowan saakel:
> >> That's illogical. There are two possibilities: Jesus told the truth
> about
> >> Himself, or He lied (and would probably have been insane in this
> case).
>
> > *That's* illogical.  People are usually not "knights" (who always tell
> > the truth) or "knaves" (who always lie).  Even if they never lie by
> > intention, *some* of their statements may be in error.
>
> _Your_ statement is illogical. Being God* on earth is boolean**; there's
> no middle ground. If Jesus was confused about being the Son of God, then
> He couldn't have been the Son of God. But then, what happened to His
> body? If the apostles took it, why did they die for what would then be a
> lie? If the Jewish priests or Romans took the body, why didn't they show
> it to the rioters a few days later to stop the riots? If Jesus didn't die
> and merely fainted, how did He take off 75 pounds (33 kilos) of linen,
> rearrange them neatly, move the tombstone (which was limestone and
> weighed several tons), disable two or more guards (not the story type
> that just run around being humiliated by the protagonist), and get food
> and medical attention in time to live on? He had a spear stuck into His
> ribs!
People die for lies all the time, especially if they've convinced
themselves that the lies are true.

> Then there's the matter of people seeing the posthumous Jesus. He
> appeared before doubters (Mary Magdelene thought He was a gardener, and
> Thomas said he'd have to see Him to trust that He was alive), which
> severely limits the possibility of hallucinations; He appeared to groups
> (once to eleven disciples, once to twelve, twice to small groups, and
> once to five hundred people) and the people in the groups remembered it
> identically, which rips the remaining hallucination argument to shred.
This is unprovable.  The only source that says so is admittedly biased.

> You're saying that Jesus might have been confused about His godhood? He
> sounded pretty certain: "Are you then the Son of God?" "You are right in
> saying I am." (Luke 22:70) Anyway, I was considering "lie" = "any untrue
> statement", whether intentional or not.
>
> You said "people are usually not...." Jesus was anything but usual.
>
> The amused, and bemused if you can think that Jesus was uncertain about
> His identity,
> Christopher Wright
>
>
> *God is three; God is one. Seems illogical, but so does altruism to a
> puma (we're not smart enough to understand). Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and
> God are all God. God said, "I am God Almighty"; God also said, "Let us
> make man in our image", and the Hebrew word for him is plural (*Elohim,
> right?).
>
> **Boolean: having only true or false as possible values. There are many
> cases which seemingly should be boolean but aren't. Take, for instance,
> the set of all sets that do not include themselves. Does that set include
> itself? If it included itself, it couldn't include itself, but if it
> didn't include itself, it would have to. However, being God is most
> definitely boolean.
>
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Prurio modo viri qui in arbore pilosa est.
                        ~~Elvis

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