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Re: Success and Failure

From:Joe Mondello <rugpretzel@...>
Date:Friday, July 7, 2000, 4:50
Ajin-gway kov ra:

> On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, Joe Mondello wrote: > > > I was struck by the passage in "Women, Fire and Dangerous Things" about > the > > Japanese "hon" particle being used to indicate success, and I decided
> > rodnús needed a convenient way to grammaticalize success, indeterminate > > result, and failure. The result has decreased the number of words my > > I have this kinda feature in my lang. It's excellent to find out that > something a little similar actually exists in a natlang. > > draqa has a system of locative prefixes in which success is grammaticized: > > hr- * located at > ei- * successfully to > saga- * unsuccessfully toward > ieh- * toward a particular destination > co- * departing from, originating at > fir- * in the general direction of > t'ageh-* in a general direction away from > > > draqa uses location and direction metaphor generously, so that: > > wiax (I), lan (home), mehi (s/he/it), fwa (affinity, like), > kiafa (understand) > > > i wiax eilan * I go (went) successfully home > i wiax sagalan * I try to get home, but don't make it there > i wiax iehlan * I am (was) headed for home > > > i mehi hrfwa * I like her (She is at my affinity)
ka saja xey san I like-(non-volitional) her VC6
> i mehi eifwa * I like her (She successfully arrived > at my affinity)
ga sajela xey san I-PERF like-become-nonvol. her VC6
> i mehi sagafwa * We try, but I end up not liking her > (She unsuccessfully approached my affinity)
ga sólaj xey san I-perf fail-like-volitional her VC6
> > i xoi sagakiafa * I try and fail to understand it > (It unsuccessfully approached > my understanding)
ga fólondime pa xa I-perf fail-understand-volit. it VC4
> > > > Failure is indicated by the infix -ól-, and success is the unmarked form. > > Here are some examples: > > > > jey tob lobr~ wam fí > > she-PERF. give food VC2 you > > She's given you food > > > ja nayu codehi eimehi: > > food from-her succ.-to-you > > > > > > jey tob-en lobr~ wam fí > > she-PERF. give-INDET. food VC2 you > > She's offered you food (but I don't know whether or not you've accepted
> . > > > > ja nayu codehi iehmehi: > > > > jey tólob lobr~ wam fí > > she-PERF. give-FAIL. food VC2 you > > She's offered you food (and you refused it). > > > ja nayu codehi sagamehi: > > > This could also mean something else prevented her from getting the food to > you besides you refusing it though.
oh absolutely, but the prototypical unsuccessful food-giving (to me, and therefore in my language) would be by refusal. This is analogous with the food giving of indeterminate success because "toben" would mean "to offer". see: ka dólob lobr~ wam fí I PAST-FAIL-give food VC2 you I tried to give you food (but you refused, or misunderstood me, or something, but it is assumed that the failure was a result of your and my interaction) But to indicate some outside source of my failure to give you food, rodnús speakers (I) would most likely use "hednex" (to attempt, try) in order to emphasize the trying: ka óledn~ tobex lobr~ wam fí I PAST-FAIL-try to-give food VC2 you I tried to give you food (but there was a hurricane in my way/you were inaccessible/someone stole my food/etc.)
> > > > > This system works very well, and it gives my language certain words and > > nuances it didn't have almost from thin air (such as the appearance of
> > word 'habmen'- "to lobby" from the root 'habmex'- "to persuade") One > major > > issue I have is the Verb Class Markers. pairs such as "to offer"/"to > give" > > seem to naturally utilize different verb classes ('offer' would normally > be a > > verbal action (ra) while 'give' would be a physical action (wam)).
> > have any Ideas on this? what I'm concerned about is that by making both > > halves of the pair use the same class markes, different aspects of the > action > > may become emphasized (e.g. using the "physical marker" with "offer"
> it > > a less social, civilized connotation (as Tarzan non-verbally thrusting a > > piece of meat in Jane's face or something) while using the "verbal
> > with "give" sounds sort of formal, like "bequeath" or "bestow" > > > The system actually feels very natural. I wonder why it's not more > common. I really dig how it takes on some of the functions of aspect. > Good luck. >
I love your system. I've been meaning to put more movement analogies in rodnús, and I think you may have provided the inspiration for it (if you don't mind me pinching your system, Joe Mondello