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Re: new Unnamed Conlang

From:Andreas Johansson <andjo@...>
Date:Sunday, September 19, 2004, 13:49
Quoting Tamas Racsko <tracsko@...>:

> On 18 Sep 2004 Andreas Johansson <andjo@FRE...> wrote: > > > Various 'lects of German and Spanish. Frenchs for /r/ in words like > > "croissant". > > I do not wat to defend Mongolian as a specification for |kh|, but > I think, 'lects of better known languages could be equally unknown > to the general public as a standard of a less known languages.
I believe I've indicated a lack of faith in the utility of such specifications at all. The question, however, was whether the voiceless uvular fricative occurs in more well-known languages, which it certainly does. (Some books give [X] as the value of /x/ after back vowels in Modern Standard High German, which 'lect I dare claim is alot more well-known than the vast majority of languages.)
> French /r/ is the voiced variant of |kh| (that is |g| before back > vowels is Khalkha). I am not completely aware of French sound > assimilation rules. Is /r/ really become unvoiced after voiced > stops?
French people have told me so. Initial /kr/ is, I'm told, realized as [qX].
> > Well, I'd be more incline to go by Rodlox' statement that it's [J\] > > than by some reconstruction of AE phonology that might differ from the > > one he's familiar with. > > IMHO it is not so simple. Hungarian |gy| in phonetically > affricate [J\j\] but it usually written as a plosive [J\]. This is > rather about accuracy of the notation and not about different > phonology.
I do not see why we should be more inclined to trust his statement that it's like AE 'dj', which certainly is polyvalent, more than his statement that it's [J\], which only has one reading. Particularly since the later statement came after the first.
> And Rodlox used notation |jy|. If we take it serious, this sound > is somehow a modified |j|. If |j| is to be read as [j] than it is a > modified _approximant / fricative_. Approximants (fricatives) > change more likely into an affricate than into a plosive. But |ii| > = [ai] seems to be an English-based solution. In this case |j| can > be treated as [dZ] and |jy| is still a modified affricate.
While I do not see any reason to take the notation 'jy' serious in this sense, I'll have it noted that X-SAMPA thinks that [J\] is a modified 'j'. The IPA symbol also seems to be based on 'j'.
> However, there is a third option: notations |jy|, |sy|, |zy| are > not systematic. In this case, you are right but we cannot say > anything about |sy| and |zy|.
No, but orthographic devices that are not perfectly systematic are often approximately so. It would a priori be unsurprising if all all digraphs in -y denoted palatals.
> > Since by Rodlox' own words, 'jy' is a palatal, it seems most likely to > > assume that '-y' denotes palatal POA rarther than palatalization or > > alveopalatal POA. > > Personally I pronounce different [J\(j\)] sounds before front and > back vowels. And the distinction between my [J\(j\)] before > palatal vowels and alveolopalatal [dz\] is not the place of the > articulation but the shape of my tongue. > > IMHO "alveolopalatal" is rather a label than a description of the > exact articulation place. Therefore I think the term palatal could > cover also prepalatals e.g. as alveolopalatals.
Certainly possible, but there does not seem to be any specific reason to believe that they are alveopalatal rather than (normal) palatal.
> > Since you appear to be familiar with EEan languages, do you know any > > that uses the digraphs 'sy' and 'zy'? > > Originally I did not mean that the notations |sy| and |zy| would > be Eastern Europish, just the concept they convey.
Rodlox, however, said it was like in EEan languages when describing the orthograpy, which certainly _suggests_ he believes some or other EEan language uses them in the same way.
> But to answer your questions, I see two instances where |sy| and > |zy| occur in Eastern European orthographies: > > 1. Romanizations of Cyrillic script. In a number of these > Romanizations pre-iotic Cyrillic letters are transcribed by |y| as > |ya|, |yu|, |ye|, |yo| etc. It these systems, we get Russian > |syuda| [s'u_X"da] '(to) here' and |zyat'| [z'at'] 'son-in-law, > brother-in-law (sister's husband)' etc.
I originally asked specifically about _Latin_ orthographies, but good to know anyway.
> 2. Some Romany dialects preserved "soft" sibillants. These sounds > are written as |sy| and |zy| in some Romany orthographies (e.g. in > the one used in Hungary). In these systems |y| is a diacritic for > palatalization, just as in Rodlox's system, e.g. |dy| [J\], |ly| > [L], |ny| [J], |ty| [c]. In case of sibillants, the result is > rather an alveolopalatal than a palatal: |sy| [s\], |zy| [z\]. > (They are merged > into |sh| [S] and |zh| [Z] in the majority the present dialects). > (Some other Romany orthographies use |j| instead of |y|, others > use > accent marks.)
Cool. Andreas