Re: CHAT: t-shirt

At 4:42 pm -0400 24/9/00, The Gray Wizard wrote:
>> From: Raymond Brown
[....]
>> Exactly - my own feeling is that we ignore the quarelsome pettiness of
>> auxlangers.  Let them design their own T-Shirt (if they can ;)
>
>The image of herding cats comes to mind.
Quite so    :-)
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At 12:15 am +0200 25/9/00, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
[....]
>I second this opinion.  Keep the auxlangs aside!  (Actually, my personal
>definition of "conlang" explicitly excludes auxlangs, even if this is
>technically incorrect.
It is incorrect, and in an important way IMO.  An auxlang need not be
artificial or constructed.  Indeed, all the most successful auxlangs so far
have not been so, e.g. Akkadian, Aramaic, Greek Koine, Medieval Latin,
French, Spanish, English, Malay/Indonesian, Swahili etc etc.

I made this point more than once during my sojourn on Auxlang - you guess
the reception it got.

Esperanto is a _constructed_ language, so is Volapük.  Compared with the
auxlangs I listed above, neither have been successful.  The majority of the
conIALs have remained conlangs; only a very small number actually got
themselves used; Esperanto remains the most successful in this respect, but
is small fry compared with actual natIALs.
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At 1:05 am +0200 25/9/00, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>The Gray Wizard wrote:
[....]
>>       SolReSol certainly has an aesthetic appeal and would surely
>> garner inquiry.
>
>Is SolReSol taken seriously by *any* auxlanger?  I think not.
If by "auxlanger" you mean a member of the Auxlang list, then I'm certain
you are correct.  But there are a few enthusiasts who'd like to revive
SolReSol, I believe.  However, it's "unusualness" and, as David said,
aesthetic appeal make it worthy of inclusion.

[....]
>Surely, Lojban is a much more interesting project (from the conlanging
>viewpoint, that is) than the typical EuroClone IAL.
Absolutely!!!! I think Jörg has got to the heart of the matter here.  The
problem is not constructed auxlangs per_se - it's the wretched
EuroCloniacs.

All the bickering, pettiness etc IME has come from the ranks of the
Eurocloniacs.

OK - we leave of Esperanto and all the other "EuroClones".
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At 8:51 pm -0400 24/9/00, nicole perrin wrote:
[....]
>Seriously though, I think the most important things are, as follows:
>
>1)  That the t-shirt gets made
>2)  That any and all languages worked on or made by conlang list members
>are included if     the member so wishes
>3)  That "classic" conlangs get included -- Quenya, Sindarin, Klingon
>(but isn't the     lexicon completely copyright protected), SolReSol,
>perhaps Bala-i-balan if possible
>
>Anti-auxlangers please take special note of #2 -- if a list member has
>created or significantly contributed to the creation of an auxlang I
>think this should be included.  Members of the conlang list should have
>input on the conlang list t-shirt.
Agreed.

>Also, I think it's useless to start any petty arguments about Esperanto
>this Esperanto that.  Personally, I think Esperanto should be included
>because of it's impact as a conlang on the man-on-the-street, but I also
>understand that its inclusion will only cause more flaming.  As the
>semi-official coordinator, I would just like to say that absolutely no
>auxlangs not created by list members will be eligible for inclusion.
>No, this does not include SolReSol, as calling SolReSol an auxlang would
>be bordering on farcical.  So, it would be appreciated if discussion of
>this point could be halted right now before it kills the project.
Also agreed. I note Nicole's view of Esperanto is the same as mine, but I
accept her reason for excluding it.  SolReSol was designed and, in fact,
successfully used for many years as an auxlang.  But it is so different
from the EuroClones and so distinct in its own right, that it is worthy of
inclusion IMHO.

It seems that the conIAL business has had a fair airing.  I think we should
be grateful to Nicole for offering to act as co-ordinator, adopt (1), (2)
and (3) above and, as she says, stop further discussion of the auxlang
business.

Ray.


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A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
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