* daniel andreasson <daniel.andreasson@...> [001014 19:44]:
> Tal skrev:
>
> > By popular demand ;) (Daniel, please ask and comment eyh?)
>
> Okelidokeli. Someone else, please ask and comment too, eyh? :) It's
> gonna be mostly questions though.
>
> > The IPA-ASCII scheme used is X-SAMPA, see
> >
> >
http://www.unil.ch/ling/phonetique/api-eng.html
>
> I saw it. It was pretty useless since I'm having troubles with my
> soundcard. And I couldn't find the x-sampa signs there either so I
> went to
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm instead.
> Anyway. I'm not used to x-sampa at all so I have a few questions.
>
> 1. What's /L/? x-sampa says "palatal lateral approximant"
> 2. What's /H/? x-sampa says "voiced labial-palatal approx."
I picked those due to how they sound at the above site, the examples
of [L] and [H] are [AL.A] and [AH.A] respectively.
> > TÂRUVEN VOWELS AND DIPHTHONGS
> >
> > târuven has six short vowels:
> >
> > a /A/ e /e/ i /i/ o /u/ u /}/ y /y/
>
> /}/ is Norwegian/Swedish {u}, right?
Yep, though with the sound-samples above, barred i is close too
(apparently the Swiss can't handle neat vowels ;) )
> One thing I notice is that your uni is focused on phonetics/-ology.
> :)
>
> > * TWO VOWELS NEXT TO EACHOTHER
> >
> > When two vowels stand next to each other, having no diacritics, an
> > umlaut or a circumflex (^), they are
> >
> > 1) pronounced separately: ai /a.i/
> > 2) counted as two separate, short sounds
> > 3) not of the same syllable
>
> Ok. This one was easy.
>
> > If the _second_ vowel in the combo has a grave (`) or acute (')
> > diacritic they are:
> >
> > 1) a _diphthong_: aì /AL/ åì /AH/ aò /Aw/ yí /Hi/ oí /wi/
>
> So {aì} is A followed by a palatal lateral approximant? Sounds
> weird. And {åì} is A followed by a voiced labial-palatal
> approximant, which must sound a bit like a /w/, right? I'm not sure
> why {aì} and {åì} would sound that different, though.
Rounding :) The i-bit in {aì} is unrounded, while in {åì} it's rounded
(it ought to have been a+ygrave but due to ISO-8859-1...)
Actually, not all the possible combinations are used in târuven proper,
but the system itself is generic enough to make any combo possible.
> Or should L and H be read as high and low tone? I guess not since
> that should be _H and _L as you have done further down this mail.
All ASCII-IPA schemes suck, and I don't know of any that suck less :)
even proper IPA sometimes can't hack it.
> > The diacritic on the second vowel tells which of the two vowels
> > that is reduced:
> >
> > - if it's a grave (`), it's the second that is weak/reduced
> > - if it's an acute ('), it's the first that is weak/reduced
>
> Ok. So {oí} sounds something like {wi} in "twin"? And would be
> spelled "toín" in târuven?
A+. {oí} is of course different from {uí}.
> And the {y} of {yí} isn't really a /j/ but rather something in
> between /j/ and /w/?
Yep. {ió} and {yó} are "of course" different ;)
> > The mnemonic I use is that the diacritic "points downwards"
> > towards the weak vowel.
>
> Good rule.
>
> > If the two vowels next to each other are of the same type, and the
> > second has a grave or an acute we have:
> >
> > 1) a _double vowel_: aà /A_H:\A_L>/ aá /A_LA_H:\/
> >
> > As you can see I've used tone-marks here for emphasis, diphthongs
> > are in fact similar, tone-wise: grave gives high-low, acute gives
> > low-high.
>
> Ok. Let's see if I've got this right.
>
> aà /A_H:\A_L>/ would be A with half-long high tone followed by a
> short A with a low tone.
>
> aá /A_LA_H:\/ would be A with a low tone followed by a slightly
> longer A with a high tone.
>
> Okay, I think I've got it!
>
> Summary so far: The only thing I'm having problems with is the
> pronunciation of /L/ and /H/.
Don't fuss over 'em; if the {i} of {aì} is the closest to /j/, the {i}
of {åì} is somewhere between /j/ and /w/ or if you like a rounded /j/.
The difference between {aò} and {aù} is that {ò} is closest to /w/
while {ù} is somewhere between /j/ and /w/, but closer to /w/ than the
{ì} of {åì}. Btw, /H/ is in the French word _lui_ /lHi/ or something
like that.
> > * THREE OR MORE VOWELS NEXT TO EACH OTHER
> >
> > To illustrate:
> >
> > a) aaa /A.A.A/
>
> Got it. You don't actually have a word with three a's in a row, now
> do you? :)
Old form of owl was {ooo}, now it's {ou'o}
> > b) aáa /A_LA_H:\.A/
>
> Yep. The last A belongs to another syllable.
>
> > c) aìa /AL.A/
>
> A falling diphthong followed by an A in a different syllable.
>
> > d) aìá /ALA/
>
> Hmm. I'm having a hard time pronouncing this as a single syllable.
> The last A comes out as a syllable of its own.
It's weaker than an ordinary {a}, and shorter too, but both stronger
and longer than the {i}. In hurried speech it'd probably be split into
two, yes.
> > e) åìò /AHw/
>
> Or {kåjw} which I could imagine a Swedish child saying when trying
> to pronounce "korv" (= 'saussage'). :) Something like that at least,
> eh?
Starts with /A/ not /o/ though. The å just makes the following i
rounded.
> > a) has three syllables, b) and c) two each, and d) and e), which
> > are triphthongs, have one syllable each.
>
> Okay. Got it.
>
> > All of this is, of course, a somewhat simplified version of the
> > real thing. Fact is, the weak/reduced vowels aren't as reduced as
> > one might assume from the above, so aì /Ai_X/ is another possible
> > IPAfication.
>
> Oh, no! What's the _X? ... Aha. "Extra-short". We should have gone
> through this more thouroghly last summer, shouldn't we? :)
Hehe
> > * EXERCISES Exercise A:
> >
> > An aìóáoùíoóêy is probably some form of bird.
> >
> > 1) How many syllables (and where are the breaks?)
>
> Yikes. Ok. Here's a try:
>
> /AL.wA.wu.jo.we:.y/ or perhaps: AL.wAou.jo.we:.y/
>
> Phew. This was hard. I think I'm going for my second alt.
Roughly: /ALwA.uwi.u_Lu_H:\.e:.y/
> > 2) How many - short sounds
>
> One. {y}
Correct
> > - long sounds
>
> Four.
Correct
> > - short vowels
>
> One. {y}
Correct
> > - long vowels
>
> One. {ê}
Correct
> > - double-vowels
>
> One. (the êy at the end.) Or perhaps zero, since I'm guessing {ê} is
> part of the {óê} diphthong.
{oó}, long vowels (with ^) cannot be munged into a vowel-combination.
> > - diphthongs
>
> Three.
None
> > - triphthongs
>
> Zero.
One
> > - tetraphthongs
>
> One.
Correct
> I'm expecting a big fat red F on this test.
Nah, I'd give you a C.
> > Exercise B: Find some other, better way to mark up the same
> > thing. ;) (You may ask for occurance-frequencies)
>
> Okej. How 'bout: {ajwaåwjowêy}? ;)
{j} is /Z/ (voiced post-alveolar fricative).
The only unused letters are {w} and {h}, though I've thought of
replacing {'} with {h}. {,} is /j/ and I'd like to replace that one
too.
> Daniel, wiping the sweat off his forehead.
Hehe, but you did ask for it...
(X-)SAMPA to IPA converter:
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/sampa/input.html
Samples of some dialects of Norwegian, both in IPA, X-SAMPA and sound:
http://benoni.hf.ntnu.no/dialektprover/indexe.html (From my uni., I
know several of the speakers.)
t.