Theiling Online    Sitemap    Conlang Mailing List HQ   

Re: Fabian's translation exercise

From:Boudewijn Rempt <bsarempt@...>
Date:Sunday, April 4, 1999, 21:25
On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Irina Rempt wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Boudewijn Rempt wrote: > > > ras bachanza.nyi ras dilogh, ras nothaz.ini ras dilogh.[2] > > 3pLGH beat.HAB 3pLGH RFL 3pLGH kill.HAB 3pLGH RFL > > they beat each other as a habit, they kill each other as a habit. > > > > ras tau.qenkaz ras dilogh hye berkernan hye belay. > > 3pLGH NEG.hunt 3pLGH RFL with bow [3] with arrow [4] > > The don't hunt each other with bow and with arrow > > The reflexive would seem to indicate "they beat themselves ... they > kill themselves... they hunt themselves..."; "each other" requires a > reciprocal pronoun; but in Denden it seems to be the same thing > because the perpetrators and the victims are all members of the same > group. Public enlightenment, please? >
Well, the group is seen as an undivisible whole and it is clearly not meant by the speaker (father) that the Goyanim include him or his own people in the beating and the killing. Therefore the beating and the killing happens to the group indicated by _ras_, and they are doing it themselves... The division within the group between element that do the killing and elements that are being killed is not important. Reflexives are a bit odd in Denden: they can either be expressed by the reflexive pronount _dilogh_ or by a regular personal pronoun. There's no difference in meaning between the next two sentences: Perve basu dilogh Perve wash REFL Perve washes herself Perve basu da Perve wash 3sMGH Perve washes herself - lit. Perve washes her. This of course begs the question: how can Talme tell us about Yinli that Perve is washing her? Perve basu Yinli Perve wash Yinli Perve washes Yinli is an obvious possibility, but Yinli ka Perve basu da Yinli TOP Perve wash 3sMGH As for Yinli, Perve washes her. is possible, but: Perve basu da Perve washes her is equally possible: in that case the context will have to decide. (Actually, in these examples, I _did_ cheat a bit: there are two verbs, _basu_ 'wash' and _basuse_ 'wash REFL', 'to bathe'. The first can always be used, the second can be used in reflexive sentences and when the washing is done in a basin big enough to be submerged in. It's just that washing is the cleares example.) As an encore a reflexive idiom: kisame dilogh nag REFL To nag yourself: to worry, to brood.