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I think for the purposes of Bandwidth, I'm going to have
to cut out some of the long commentary... this can all
be restored on the website. So sorry!
Rob Nierse wrote:
>=20
> Well, you all have been waiting for my text and here it is.
>=20
> I recieved the Denden text from Boudewijn. I thought that was an advant=
age,
> because of all conlangs I know Denden and Valdyan are the best I know.
> Armed with "De syntaxis van het Denden" from 1992 I was waiting
> for the post. I had little time (just about three hours at work)
> and hoped I would understand everything fast.
>=20
> >Tan Qunayir din.din
> >
> >Qunayir is the Charyan goddess of cats. She's not a cat herself,
> >although she can take the shape of a cat, as can her followers.
> >She's kind, helps poor people and likes children. See
> >
http://denden.conlang.org/~bsarempt/andal/peoples_and_places/charya/re=> >for more information.
>=20
> Here was my first problem. I couldn't find this site! So I assumed
> it was a religious text. That made me think of the religious world of t=
he
> Gbwia.
>=20
> >tan aday cendra tayr alat ga serasdir qir.ini
> >RTV child dark TEG fear NOM 3sHGH see.HAB
> >
> >Originally, this was the 'place under the bed children fear', but
> >since Charyan beds are simply mats on the ground (at least for
> >children - rich adults may have large beds), this was quite
> >untranslatable.
> This worked for Gbwia too. No beds.
>=20
> >tan naiwudan taret yohox tan yumir umir yavai qazir ga serasdir yondir=
.ini
> >RTV neighbour riches SREL RTV wife husband love break NOM 3sHGH >look_=
at.HAB
>=20
> >Take a look at my recent posting on relative sentences for this one,
> >it's quite complex.
>=20
> This is where I went wrong. I found the poem difficult,
> and this sentence certainly was difficult. I had to finish the text bef=
ore
> the weekend, so I decided to make the best of it and make the poem
> the way the Gbwia would like it.
>=20
> Here is my text I send Christophe:
> ------------------------
>=20
> Hallo Christophe,
>=20
> Here is the Gbw=EC=E0 version of Boudewijn's Denden version of Matt's v=
ersion
> of Josh's version of Sally's poem ;-).
> I have to say that it was quite a difficult one. Boudewijn mentioned he=
had
> troubles as well, so I'm very interested what will be the result in the
> end. I wish you a lot of succes.
> I give you the text, the text with hyphens to distinguish the morphs an=
d an
> interlinear explanation.
>=20
> Unfortunately I have no grammar on Internet, so I will include it as a =
text
> file. I hope it will help you out.
> G'weo-Gb'u =F9-nw=F2oda kp=E8
>=20
> u-ndop' shwa=F2 s=E9 m-hleqa =F9-hlu' hlw=E0=E8-pki mi.
> u-ndop' shwa=F2 s=E9 m-ngu-kpi =F9-hlu' v=E2 mi.
> u-ndop' c=F9ta s=E9 m-gbwiqo-kpi =F9-xwohl' qw=E8um=E0 mi.
> xia-=EE, xia-=EE Gwe=F2-Gbu =F9-ndii-ndii
>=20
> u-ndop' hlel=E8 s=E9 m-lw=E0-x=F9=EC =F9-gbw=E8ugb=E0 ndweg=E0 mi.
> =F9-ndop' hlel=E8 s=E9 m-nd=E0i =F9-ng=F9twi ngwoa =F9-kpwe-pki mi.
> =F9-ndop' mba c'wox'wu-kpi kp=E8 w=E9 =F9-gbahl=F9 cwik=F2 =F9-tao =F9-=
x'=F2i kp=E8 mi
> xia-=EE, xia-=EE Gwe=F2-Gbu =F9-via-via
HERE IS THE SMOOTH TRANSLATION:
1. They used to hear that wind gives health.
2. They used to hear that stream gives food.
3. They used to listen that separation saddens the belly.
4. Praise, praise to Broken Legs' ears.
5. They used to see that the forest strengthens the home.
6. They used to see that the fear covers the child's darkness.
7. They used to look at the richness of the neighbour that breaks the
wife's love for her husband.
8. Praise, praise to Broken Legs' eyes.
=20
> Word-order is SOV.
>=20
> Abbreviations
>=20
> COLL - collective. Makes 'forest' out of 'tree'.
> DUP - reduplication. Reduplication of nouns signals plurality.
> E - ergative. The most active agent in the sentence.
> END - morpheme indicating the end of the subordination (see SUB).
> IMP - imperative
> NOM - nominalisation.
> O - Object.
> OBL - Oblique object (indicated by < ' > =3D ejective or implosive). Is
> followed by noun + postposition indicating what kind of oblique object =
it
> is (like kp=E8, gw=EC etc.).
> SUB - suborination. Subordination is characterised by two morphemes: s=E9=
at
> the beginning and mi closing it. E.g. =E0-shwa=F2 s=E9 =EC-kwi mi 'I he=
ar that you
> walk.'
> 3 - third person
> s - singular number
> p - plural number
>=20
> ------------
>=20
> G'weo-Gb'u =F9-nw=F2oda kp=E8
> OBL 'Broken Leg' 3s-phrase about
>=20
> ->Broken Leg is an important Gbw=EC=E0 god. He is kind and good and onc=
e was
> a witch doctor. He became immortal and thus a god and still helps peopl=
e
> out.
>=20
> 1. u-ndop' shwa=F2 s=E9 m-hleqa =F9-hlu' '-hlw=E0=E8-pki mi.
> 3p-use_to hear SUB E-wind 3s-give O-health-NOM END
>=20
> ->ndop=E0 loses the 'a' because of 3 person conjugation. Hlu=F9 loses '=
=F9'
> because of the same reason.
> ->there is a ' (downstep) before hlw=E0=E8-pki indicating Object. You c=
an't
> hear the downstep of course because the following toneme is low
> (downstep is only audible between two high tones, the second being a li=
ttle lower
> than the first)
>=20
> 2. u-ndop' shwa=F2 s=E9 m-ngu-kpi =F9-hlu' '-v=E2 mi.
> 3p-use_to hear SUB E-stream-NOM 3s-give O-food END
>=20
> 3. u-ndop' c=F9ta s=E9 m-gbwiqo-kpi =F9-xwohl' '-qw=E8um=E0 mi.
> 3p-use_to listen_to SUB E-separate-NOM 3s-sadden O-belly END
>=20
> ->full form of xwohl' is xwohl=F2.
>=20
> 4. xia-=EE, xia-=EE '-Gwe=F2-Gbu =F9-ndii-ndii
> praise-IMP O-Broken Leg 3s-ear-DUP
>=20
> 5. u-ndop' hlel=E8 s=E9 m-lw=E0-x=F9=EC =F9-gbw=E8ugb=E0 '-ndweg=E0 mi.
> 3p-use_to see SUB E-tree-COLL 3s-strengthen O-house END
>=20
> 6. =F9-ndop' hlel=E8 s=E9 m-nd=E0i =F9-ng=F9twi '-ngwoa =F9-kpwe-pki mi.
> 3p-use_to see SUB E-fear 3s-cover O-child 3s-dark-NOM END
>=20
> 7. =F9-ndop' mba c'wox'wu-kpi kp=E8 w=E9 =F9-gbahl=F9 '-cwik=F2 =F9-tao=
=F9-x'=F2i kp=E8 mi
> 3p-use_to look rich-NOM at SUB 3s-break O-wife 3s-love 3s-husband for
> END
>=20
> 8. xia-=EE, xia-=EE '-Gwe=F2-Gbu =F9-via-via
> praise-IMP O-Broken Leg 3s-eye-DUP
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
SALLY CAVES
scaves@frontiernet.net
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves (bragpage)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teonaht.html (T. homepage)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/contents.html (all else)
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Niffodyr tweluenrem lis teuim an.
"The gods have retractible claws."
from _The Gospel of Bastet_
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:52:46 +0100
From: "Rob Nierse" <rnierse@...>
To: scaves@frontiernet.net, grandsir@natlab.research.philips.com
Cc: Fuscian@aol.com, fflores@ARNET.COM.AR, tb0pwd1@corn.cso.niu.edu,
john@DRUMMOND.DEMON.CO.UK, rhialto@easynet.co.uk,
jmpearson@FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU, fortytwo@gdn.net, Jeffrey@Henning.com,
dennis@himes.connix.com, myth@INQUO.NET, draqonfayir@juno.com,
cowan@locke.ccil.org, dirk.elzinga@M.CC.UTAH.EDU,
pag000@MAIL.CONNECT.MORE.NET, hobbit@mail.earthlight.co.nz,
bsarempt@rempt.xs4all.nl, ira@rempt.xs4all.nl, nicole.perrin@snet.net,
Paul.Bennett@xncorp.com
Subject: Betreft: My translation (VERY LONG)
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Well, you all have been waiting for my text and here it is.
I recieved the Denden text from Boudewijn. I thought that was an advantag=
e,
because of all conlangs I know Denden and Valdyan are the best I know.
Armed with "De syntaxis van het Denden" from 1992 I was waiting
for the post. I had little time (just about three hours at work)
and hoped I would understand everything fast.
gion/temple_qunayir.html
>for more information.
Here was my first problem. I couldn't find this site! So I assumed=20
it was a religious text. That made me think of the religious world of the=
=20
Gbwia.
>tan aday cendra tayr alat ga serasdir qir.ini
>RTV child dark TEG fear NOM 3sHGH see.HAB
>
>Originally, this was the 'place under the bed children fear', but
>since Charyan beds are simply mats on the ground (at least for
>children - rich adults may have large beds), this was quite
>untranslatable.
This worked for Gbwia too. No beds.
>tan naiwudan taret yohox tan yumir umir yavai qazir ga serasdir yondir.i=
ni
>RTV neighbour riches SREL RTV wife husband love break NOM 3sHGH >look_at=
.HAB
>Take a look at my recent posting on relative sentences for this one,
>it's quite complex.
This is where I went wrong. I found the poem difficult,
and this sentence certainly was difficult. I had to finish the text befor=
e=20
the weekend, so I decided to make the best of it and make the poem
the way the Gbwia would like it.
Here is my text I send Christophe:
------------------------
Hallo Christophe,
Here is the Gbw=EC=E0 version of Boudewijn's Denden version of Matt's ver=
sion
of Josh's version of Sally's poem ;-).
I have to say that it was quite a difficult one. Boudewijn mentioned he h=
ad
troubles as well, so I'm very interested what will be the result in the
end. I wish you a lot of succes.
I give you the text, the text with hyphens to distinguish the morphs and =
an
interlinear explanation.
Unfortunately I have no grammar on Internet, so I will include it as a te=
xt
file. I hope it will help you out.
If you have any questions, you can't mail me, because we will not be at
work! So you can call me on 0252 - 23.22.21, that's my home number. If I'=
m
not at home (very good chance that I'm not) leave a message on the answer
machine with your telephone number.
Today I'm at work untill 16.00 h. You can mail me or phone here on
070-3147334.
----------
G'weo-Gb'u =F9-nw=F2oda kp=E8
u-ndop' shwa=F2 s=E9 m-hleqa =F9-hlu' hlw=E0=E8-pki mi.
u-ndop' shwa=F2 s=E9 m-ngu-kpi =F9-hlu' v=E2 mi.
u-ndop' c=F9ta s=E9 m-gbwiqo-kpi =F9-xwohl' qw=E8um=E0 mi.
xia-=EE, xia-=EE Gwe=F2-Gbu =F9-ndii-ndii
u-ndop' hlel=E8 s=E9 m-lw=E0-x=F9=EC =F9-gbw=E8ugb=E0 ndweg=E0 mi.
=F9-ndop' hlel=E8 s=E9 m-nd=E0i =F9-ng=F9twi ngwoa =F9-kpwe-pki mi.
=F9-ndop' mba c'wox'wu-kpi kp=E8 w=E9 =F9-gbahl=F9 cwik=F2 =F9-tao =F9-x'=
=F2i kp=E8 mi
xia-=EE, xia-=EE Gwe=F2-Gbu =F9-via-via
Word-order is SOV.=20
Abbreviations
COLL - collective. Makes 'forest' out of 'tree'.
DUP - reduplication. Reduplication of nouns signals plurality.
E - ergative. The most active agent in the sentence.
END - morpheme indicating the end of the subordination (see SUB).
IMP - imperative
NOM - nominalisation.
O - Object.
OBL - Oblique object (indicated by < ' > =3D ejective or implosive). Is
followed by noun + postposition indicating what kind of oblique object it
is (like kp=E8, gw=EC etc.).
SUB - suborination. Subordination is characterised by two morphemes: s=E9=
at
the beginning and mi closing it. E.g. =E0-shwa=F2 s=E9 =EC-kwi mi 'I hear=
that you
walk.'
3 - third person
s - singular number
p - plural number
------------
G'weo-Gb'u =F9-nw=F2oda kp=E8
OBL 'Broken Leg' 3s-phrase about
->Broken Leg is an important Gbw=EC=E0 god. He is kind and good and once =
was
a witch doctor. He became immortal and thus a god and still helps people
out.
1. u-ndop' shwa=F2 s=E9 m-hleqa =F9-hlu' '-hlw=E0=E8-pki mi.
3p-use_to hear SUB E-wind 3s-give O-health-NOM END
->ndop=E0 loses the 'a' because of 3 person conjugation. Hlu=F9 loses '=F9=
'
because of the same reason.
->there is a ' (downstep) before hlw=E0=E8-pki indicating Object. You can=
't
hear the downstep of course because the following toneme is low
(downstep is only audible between two high tones, the second being a litt=
le lower
than the first)
2. u-ndop' shwa=F2 s=E9 m-ngu-kpi =F9-hlu' '-v=E2 mi.
3p-use_to hear SUB E-stream-NOM 3s-give O-food END
3. u-ndop' c=F9ta s=E9 m-gbwiqo-kpi =F9-xwohl' '-qw=E8um=E0 mi.
3p-use_to listen_to SUB E-separate-NOM 3s-sadden O-belly END
->full form of xwohl' is xwohl=F2.
4. xia-=EE, xia-=EE '-Gwe=F2-Gbu =F9-ndii-ndii
praise-IMP O-Broken Leg 3s-ear-DUP
5. u-ndop' hlel=E8 s=E9 m-lw=E0-x=F9=EC =F9-gbw=E8ugb=E0 '-ndweg=E0 mi.
3p-use_to see SUB E-tree-COLL 3s-strengthen O-house END
6. =F9-ndop' hlel=E8 s=E9 m-nd=E0i =F9-ng=F9twi '-ngwoa =F9-kpwe-pki mi.
3p-use_to see SUB E-fear 3s-cover O-child 3s-dark-NOM END
7. =F9-ndop' mba c'wox'wu-kpi kp=E8 w=E9 =F9-gbahl=F9 '-cwik=F2 =F9-tao =F9=
-x'=F2i kp=E8 mi
3p-use_to look rich-NOM at SUB 3s-break O-wife 3s-love 3s-husband for
END
8. xia-=EE, xia-=EE '-Gwe=F2-Gbu =F9-via-via
praise-IMP O-Broken Leg 3s-eye-DUP
Now Christophe had some questions. Due to time pressure I made
some typo's. the most interesting questions are below:
----------
> Van: Christophe Grandsire <grandsir@...>
> Aan: R. Nierse <rnierse@...>
> Onderwerp: Re: Relay
> Datum: vrijdag 8 oktober 1999 14:05
>=20
> Hi again Rob,
>=20
> I have small problems understanding some things in your text. Can you
> help me out? Don't be afraid that the accented letters disappeared, it'=
s
> just a problem of the computers here. I printed your e-mail and the
> accents were right.
>=20
> > ------------
> >=20
> > G'weo-Gb'u y-nwroda kph
> > OBL 'Broken Leg' 3s-phrase about
> >=20
>=20
> Does that correspond to a structure possessor
> possessive.suffix-possessed like in Colloquial Dutch? And if so, does
> the postposition refer to 'Broken Leg' or to phrase? Anyway, does this
> mean "About Broken Leg's sayings" or "Phrases about Broken Leg"? I can'=
t
> understand the use of the personal prefix here.
>=20
It is "About Broken Leg's sayings"
> > 6. y-ndop' hlelh si m-nd`i y-ngytwi '-ngwoa
y-kpwe-pki mi.
> > 3p-use_to see SUB E-fear 3s-cover O-child
3s-dark-NOM END
> >=20
>=20
> Same problem with "u`-kpwe-pki". Does the personal prefix here
> correspond to 'fear' or 'child'?
the fear he covers the child his darkness -> the fear covers the child's
darkness.
It is difficult to differentiate between a conjugated transitive verb and=
a
noun + possessive prefix!
E.G. xw=E0u 'wing' =F9-xw=E0u 'his wing' or 'he flies'.
I found sentence 6 and 7 the most difficult ones! Do you agree?
> > 7. y-ndop' mba c'wox'wu-kpi kph wi y-gbahly=20
'-cwikr y-tao y-x'ri kph mi
> > 3p-use_to look rich-NOM at SUB 3s-break=20
O-wife 3s-love 3s-husband for
> > END
> >=20
>=20
> Is "we'" the beginning of another kind of subordinate or is it just a
> typo for "se'"? For the structure of the subordinate, I think that if
> you can make clear the rest, I have an idea of what it is. I don't want
> you to explain me too much, I want to guess some things :) .
I should have explained that! W=E9 is the standard subordinator. S=E9 is =
used
with verba sentendi et declarandi (see, hear, think) alone
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