Relay: 6. From Gbwia to Chasma"o"cho
| From: | Sally Caves <scaves@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Sunday, December 5, 1999, 20:00 |
|---|
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Grandsire, C.A. wrote:
> Here is a litteral (enough) translation of my text:
>
> (About) Asclepios's sayings
>
> They hear that the wind gives health.
> They hear that the stream gives good food.
> They hear that the separation saddens the belly.
> Let's praise them! Let's praise Asclepios's ears!
>
> They see that the forest strengthens the house.
> They see that the fear covers the child's darkness.
> They see the richness that breaks the spouse's love for his/her spouse.
> Let's praise them! Let's praise Asclepios's eyes!
>
> And now here is the mail I sent to Pablo (Pablo, you'll see a few
> differences in the text I actually sent you, but they are only due to
> personal suffixes that should have been of one form instead of another,
> and it doesn't change at all the meaning of the text, and even hardly
> its rhythm):
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi Pablo,
>
> Here is the text of the translation relay in Chasma"o"cho, after
> a
> weekend's struggle to determine what the heck does this text mean and
> what words and constructions I'm gonna create in Chasma"o"cho to
> translate it :) . And finally I came up with this. If you need help,
> just mail me, I'll be here until 14H30 GMT. But I hope the
> interlinearization
> I'll give you will be enough to make you understand what's
> understandable in this poem (I admit I still don't understand some
> things in it).
>
> One word about Chasma"o"cho: it's a VSO language with possible
> incorporation of the object in the verbal complex, agreement with both
> subject and object, animate/inanimate gender, normal/construct state and
> a strange orthography. It has also words with mandatory possessives. But
> everything will be clearer in the interlinearization. So here is the
> text (followed by a SAMPA transcription, if you want to see what it
> sounds like). Don't be afraid by the umlauts, they only mark the stress
> when it doesn't fall on the last syllable of the word, and are put on
> both vowels of a diphtong if necessary. In the same way, the apostrophe
> is only a graphical mark that has no particular meaning (except that
> there is something missing, like in English). So here is the text:
>
> Ti' emol Asclepyos
>
> Home"u"fadi vraotceipcei tle"the chasmeuth achuunao' ae,
> hompas ceipcei skro"e"he chasmeuth clu"u"me ae,
> hompas vraotendhipsirmeude"i"ri gdoja"re ae,
> : eufadipenta"e"sti, eufadipenta"e"sti ehequ"e"va Asclepyos : |
>
> Ucirmadh elptasinsubeude"li fyongyo"ngo ae,
> ucirpas sratese"li tuuplao' zoepe' memyo' ae,
> ucirpas fadhe' vraotproce"i"ri i"nte yan creszeud vraotuuf' cre"luum ae,
> : eufadipenta"e"sti, eufadipenta"e"sti acmiqu"e"va Asclepyos : |
>
> /t'i em'Ol askl@pj'Os/
> /hom'2P@d@ BRawtk@jpk'Ej tl'eT@ tSasm'9T adZ@wn'awaj/
> /hOmp'as kEjpk'Ej skR'Ojh@ tSasm'9T kl'um@aj/
> /hOmp'as BRawt@nD@psiRm@d'EjR@ gdodZ'aR@aj/
> /2P@dip@nt'ajst@ 2P@dip@nt'ajst@ eh@k'ujB@ askl@pj'Os/
> /yk@Rm'aD Elpt@s@zyb@d'el@ PjOngj'Ong@aj/
> /yk@Rp'as srats'el@ tupl'aw zOjp'e mEmj'oaj/
> /yk@Rp'as PaD'e BRawtpR@k'EjR@ 'int@ j'an kRes'9d Brawt'uP kr'el@wmaj/
> /2P@dip@nt'ajst@ 2P@dip@nt'ajst@ akm@k'ujB@ asklepj'Os/
>
> Now, I give you the abreviations I use, followed by the
> transliteration
> of the text:
>
> ABREVIATIONS:
>
> 3i: 3rd person inanimate prefix (personal agreement)
> 3il: 3rd person inanimate (long form) (idem)
> 3sel: 3rd person singular epicene (long form) (possession and personal
> agreement)
> 3sml: 3rd person singular masculine (long form) (idem)
> 3pel: 3rd person plural epicene (long form) (idem)
> 3pes: 3rd person plural epicene (short form) (idem)
> 3rl: resumptive person (long form) (idem)
> 1pl: 1st person plural (long form) (idem)
>
> def: definite article
> pl: plural
> const: construct state (of a noun or a verb)
> coll: collective
> pstem: pro-stem
>
> END: end of subclause
>
> TRANSLITERATION:
>
> Ti' e-mol Asclepyos
> 3i-about pl-phrase-const Asclepios
>
> "Ti'" is a preposition used much like the Latin 'de' and meaning
> "about, concerning". Like all prepositions, it is in fact a contracted
> form of a verb ('ti"che': to concern) and is conjugated. But here the
> object
> prefix is 0- so it doesn't appear.
>
> The structure noun1-const noun2 means "noun2's noun1" or "noun1
> of
> noun2". The construct state is also used with nouns followed by a
> relative clause and verbs of clauses followed by a subclause.
>
> The text I got from Rob didn't have Asclepios in fact, but the
> god of
> medecine of his conculture. With the description he gave me of him, I
> decided that it matched very well the Greek god of medecine Asclepios,
> so I used his name.
>
> Hom-eufadi vraot-ceip-cei tleth-e chasmeuth achuuna-o
> 3i-hear-const-3pel 3sel-give-3il wind-def good health-def
>
> ae,
> END
>
> The only thing I have to say here is that the order in the
> subclause is VSO, the adjective 'chasmeuth' refers to the next noun (not
> the standard
> order in Chasma"o"cho, but here it 'feels' right and it's not
> forbidden), and the article is used also to refer to things in general,
> where English wouldn't use it (hence health-def: "health" in general).
>
> NOTE: 'health' is animate in Chasma"o"cho.
>
> 'ae' is used to mark the end of a subclause. The beginning of
> this
> subclause is easy to find: it is the second verb of the sentence.
>
> The order in the verbal complex is: object
> prefix-stem-(incorporated
> object-)subject prefix. Agreement is mandatory.
>
> Note that the punctuation in Chasma"o"cho is very different than
> in
> English. The comma is used when in English a dot is used (or sometimes a
> comma too, but to separates independent clauses only), colons
> surrounding a sentence mean exclamation, the pipe means: end of
> paragraph. Also, only the first letter of a paragraph is capitalised,
> not the first letter of every sentence.
>
> hom-pas ceip-cei skroeh-e chasmeuth cluum-e
> 3i-hear-const-3rl 3i-give-3il stream-def good eat-def
>
> ae,
> END
>
> The only thing I have to say here is that adding the article on
> a verb stem makes it a concrete noun, so eat-def: "food".
>
> hom-pas vraot-endhipr-sirm-eud-eiri gdojar-e ae,
> 3i-hear-const-3rl 3sel-sadden-belly-3pes-3il separation-def END
>
> here, you have an example of incorporation of the object inside
> the
> verb. It is possible only if the object is a single noun completed only
> by short form affixes and by no adjective, noun or subclause.
>
> The object incorporated is also a noun that has mandatory
> possession
> on it. To refer to the noun in general (like with a simple article), the
> possessive used is the 3rd person plural epicene short form -eud. So
> 'sirmeud' doesn't mean "their belly" here, but simply "the belly".
>
> : eufadi-pent-aesti, eufadi-pent-aesti e-he-queva Asclepyos :
> |
> 3pel-praise-1pl 3pel-praise-1pl pl-ear-3sml Aclepios
>
> 'ear' has also mandatory possession. When followed by the
> possessor
> (here Asclepios), you must still use the possessive suffix, in long form
> only, and agreeing totally with the possessor. So here: "ear-his
> Asclepios": "Asclepios's ears".
>
> NOTE: like all organs, 'ear' is animate in Chasma"o"cho.
>
> Ucir-madh elptas-insub-eud-eli fyongyong-o
> ae,
> 3i-see-const-3pel 3i-strengthen-house-3pes-3sel tree-coll-def
> END
>
> Here is another example of incorporated object, and 'house' has
> also
> mandatory possession.
>
> Collectives can be made by doubling the last syllable of a noun.
> So
> 'fyong': tree -> 'fyongyong': small forest. Collectives are used only
> for small quantities, and are of the same gender as the noun where they
> come from (here animate).
>
> ucir-pas srates-eli tuupla-o zoepa-e meme-o
> 3i-see-const-3rl 3i-cover-3sel fear-def darkness-const
> child-def
>
> ae,
> END
>
> I didn't understand this sentence. So I made a word-by-word
> translation. I hope you will find a meaning to this insane thing :) .
>
> NOTE: unlike other emotions, and like feelings like love, 'fear'
> is
> animate.
>
> ucir-pas fadha-e vraot-proc-eiri int-e yan
> 3i-see-const-3rl richness-const 3sel-break-3il pstem-def love-const
>
> cres-eud vraot-uuf' cr-eluum ae,
> spouse-3pes 3sel-for spouse-3sel END
>
> The pro-stem 'int' is here used as a resumptive to mark the
> function
> of the antecedent in the relative clause.
>
> 'spouse' is also a word with mandatory possession. It is an
> epicene
> word in Chasma"o"cho.
>
> "uuf'" is a preposition coming from the verb 'uufa"ce': to give
> to. It has the meaning of the dative 'to', or the benefactive 'for'. The
> prefix
> on it is just there as it agrees with its complement (here the object
> following it) as a verb.
>
> NOTE: 'love', as all feelings, is animate. this word is special,
> as
> its construct state is identical to the normal state.
>
> : eufadi-pent-aesti, eufadi-pent-aesti akmi-queva Asclepyos :
> |
> 3pel-praise-1pl 3pel-praise-1pl pl-eye-3sml Asclepios
>
> 'eye' also has mandatory agreement and is animate.
============================================================
SALLY CAVES
scaves@frontiernet.net
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves (bragpage)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teonaht.html (T. homepage)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/contents.html (all else)
=====================================================================
Niffodyr tweluenrem lis teuim an.
"The gods have retractible claws."
from _The Gospel of Bastet_
============================================================
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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:54:19 +0100
From: "Grandsire, C.A." <grandsir@...>
Organization: Philips Research
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To: Sally Caves <scaves@...>
Cc: Nik Taylor <fortytwo@...>, Boudewijn Rempt <bsarempt@...>,
Steg Belsky <draqonfayir@...>,
Irina Rempt-Drijfhout <ira@...>,
Andrew Smith <hobbit@...>,
Josh Roth <Fuscian@...>,
Matt Pearson <jmpearson@...>,
Rob Nierse <rnierse@...>, Pablo Flores <fflores@...>,
Dirk Elzinga <dirk.elzinga@...>,
Dennis Paul Himes <dennis@...>,
Nicole Perrin <nicole.perrin@...>, Adam Parrish <myth@...>,
John Fisher <john@...>,
Fabian <rhialto@...>, John Cowan <cowan@...>,
Terrence Donnelly <pag000@...>,
Patrick Dunn <tb0pwd1@...>,
Paul Bennett <Paul.Bennett@...>,
Jeffrey Henning <Jeffrey@...>,
Christopher Grandsire <grandsir@...>
Subject: My translation (VERY LONG)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9910062215260.1330-100000@...> <383384AB.A60DB38F@...>
<3836DC5B.C6FA1E34@...> <3836E334.56AE74B8@...> <3837AD40.AB537B2D@...>
<383843E1.2BD79FA6@...> <38387221.1EC12971@X-UIDL:
707ff836dbf92f65af32c850ab26b57d
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Okay, as it seems to be the consensus, I'll send my part only to the
minilist. If the consensus changes, I'll keep my mail and redirect to it
(it's a long one, so that's why I'm careful). By the way, I keep all the
mails containing the translations in a special mailbox, so Sally, if you
lose any material about the relay, you can ask me :) .
Sorry I can't send the text Rob sent me, but it's full of accented
letters and I can't send them (I can receive them without a problem, but
if I quote an accented text to send it somewhere, the accented letters
disappear :( ). You'll have to wait for him :( .
Here is a litteral (enough) translation of my text:
(About) Asclepios's sayings
They hear that the wind gives health.
They hear that the stream gives good food.
They hear that the separation saddens the belly.
Let's praise them! Let's praise Asclepios's ears!
They see that the forest strengthens the house.
They see that the fear covers the child's darkness.
They see the richness that breaks the spouse's love for his/her spouse.
Let's praise them! Let's praise Asclepios's eyes!
And now here is the mail I sent to Pablo (Pablo, you'll see a few
differences in the text I actually sent you, but they are only due to
personal suffixes that should have been of one form instead of another,
and it doesn't change at all the meaning of the text, and even hardly
its rhythm):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Pablo,
Here is the text of the translation relay in Chasma"o"cho, after
a
weekend's struggle to determine what the heck does this text mean and
what words and constructions I'm gonna create in Chasma"o"cho to
translate it :) . And finally I came up with this. If you need help,
just mail me, I'll be here until 14H30 GMT. But I hope the
interlinearization
I'll give you will be enough to make you understand what's
understandable in this poem (I admit I still don't understand some
things in it).
One word about Chasma"o"cho: it's a VSO language with possible
incorporation of the object in the verbal complex, agreement with both
subject and object, animate/inanimate gender, normal/construct state and
a strange orthography. It has also words with mandatory possessives. But
everything will be clearer in the interlinearization. So here is the
text (followed by a SAMPA transcription, if you want to see what it
sounds like). Don't be afraid by the umlauts, they only mark the stress
when it doesn't fall on the last syllable of the word, and are put on
both vowels of a diphtong if necessary. In the same way, the apostrophe
is only a graphical mark that has no particular meaning (except that
there is something missing, like in English). So here is the text:
Ti' emol Asclepyos
Home"u"fadi vraotceipcei tle"the chasmeuth achuunao' ae,
hompas ceipcei skro"e"he chasmeuth clu"u"me ae,
hompas vraotendhipsirmeude"i"ri gdoja"re ae,
: eufadipenta"e"sti, eufadipenta"e"sti ehequ"e"va Asclepyos : |
Ucirmadh elptasinsubeude"li fyongyo"ngo ae,
ucirpas sratese"li tuuplao' zoepe' memyo' ae,
ucirpas fadhe' vraotproce"i"ri i"nte yan creszeud vraotuuf' cre"luum ae,
: eufadipenta"e"sti, eufadipenta"e"sti acmiqu"e"va Asclepyos : |
/t'i em'Ol askl@pj'Os/
/hom'2P@d@ BRawtk@jpk'Ej tl'eT@ tSasm'9T adZ@wn'awaj/
/hOmp'as kEjpk'Ej skR'Ojh@ tSasm'9T kl'um@aj/
/hOmp'as BRawt@nD@psiRm@d'EjR@ gdodZ'aR@aj/
/2P@dip@nt'ajst@ 2P@dip@nt'ajst@ eh@k'ujB@ askl@pj'Os/
/yk@Rm'aD Elpt@s@zyb@d'el@ PjOngj'Ong@aj/
/yk@Rp'as srats'el@ tupl'aw zOjp'e mEmj'oaj/
/yk@Rp'as PaD'e BRawtpR@k'EjR@ 'int@ j'an kRes'9d Brawt'uP kr'el@wmaj/
/2P@dip@nt'ajst@ 2P@dip@nt'ajst@ akm@k'ujB@ asklepj'Os/
Now, I give you the abreviations I use, followed by the
transliteration
of the text:
ABREVIATIONS:
3i: 3rd person inanimate prefix (personal agreement)
3il: 3rd person inanimate (long form) (idem)
3sel: 3rd person singular epicene (long form) (possession and personal
agreement)
3sml: 3rd person singular masculine (long form) (idem)
3pel: 3rd person plural epicene (long form) (idem)
3pes: 3rd person plural epicene (short form) (idem)
3rl: resumptive person (long form) (idem)
1pl: 1st person plural (long form) (idem)
def: definite article
pl: plural
const: construct state (of a noun or a verb)
coll: collective
pstem: pro-stem
END: end of subclause
TRANSLITERATION:
Ti' e-mol Asclepyos
3i-about pl-phrase-const Asclepios
"Ti'" is a preposition used much like the Latin 'de' and meaning
"about, concerning". Like all prepositions, it is in fact a contracted
form of a verb ('ti"che': to concern) and is conjugated. But here the
object
prefix is 0- so it doesn't appear.
The structure noun1-const noun2 means "noun2's noun1" or "noun1
of
noun2". The construct state is also used with nouns followed by a
relative clause and verbs of clauses followed by a subclause.
The text I got from Rob didn't have Asclepios in fact, but the
god of
medecine of his conculture. With the description he gave me of him, I
decided that it matched very well the Greek god of medecine Asclepios,
so I used his name.
Hom-eufadi vraot-ceip-cei tleth-e chasmeuth achuuna-o
3i-hear-const-3pel 3sel-give-3il wind-def good health-def
ae,
END
The only thing I have to say here is that the order in the
subclause is VSO, the adjective 'chasmeuth' refers to the next noun (not
the standard
order in Chasma"o"cho, but here it 'feels' right and it's not
forbidden), and the article is used also to refer to things in general,
where English wouldn't use it (hence health-def: "health" in general).
NOTE: 'health' is animate in Chasma"o"cho.
'ae' is used to mark the end of a subclause. The beginning of
this
subclause is easy to find: it is the second verb of the sentence.
The order in the verbal complex is: object
prefix-stem-(incorporated
object-)subject prefix. Agreement is mandatory.
Note that the punctuation in Chasma"o"cho is very different than
in
English. The comma is used when in English a dot is used (or sometimes a
comma too, but to separates independent clauses only), colons
surrounding a sentence mean exclamation, the pipe means: end of
paragraph. Also, only the first letter of a paragraph is capitalised,
not the first letter of every sentence.
hom-pas ceip-cei skroeh-e chasmeuth cluum-e
3i-hear-const-3rl 3i-give-3il stream-def good eat-def
ae,
END
The only thing I have to say here is that adding the article on
a verb stem makes it a concrete noun, so eat-def: "food".
hom-pas vraot-endhipr-sirm-eud-eiri gdojar-e ae,
3i-hear-const-3rl 3sel-sadden-belly-3pes-3il separation-def END
here, you have an example of incorporation of the object inside
the
verb. It is possible only if the object is a single noun completed only
by short form affixes and by no adjective, noun or subclause.
The object incorporated is also a noun that has mandatory
possession
on it. To refer to the noun in general (like with a simple article), the
possessive used is the 3rd person plural epicene short form -eud. So
'sirmeud' doesn't mean "their belly" here, but simply "the belly".
: eufadi-pent-aesti, eufadi-pent-aesti e-he-queva Asclepyos :
|
3pel-praise-1pl 3pel-praise-1pl pl-ear-3sml Aclepios
'ear' has also mandatory possession. When followed by the
possessor
(here Asclepios), you must still use the possessive suffix, in long form
only, and agreeing totally with the possessor. So here: "ear-his
Asclepios": "Asclepios's ears".
NOTE: like all organs, 'ear' is animate in Chasma"o"cho.
Ucir-madh elptas-insub-eud-eli fyongyong-o
ae,
3i-see-const-3pel 3i-strengthen-house-3pes-3sel tree-coll-def
END
Here is another example of incorporated object, and 'house' has
also
mandatory possession.
Collectives can be made by doubling the last syllable of a noun.
So
'fyong': tree -> 'fyongyong': small forest. Collectives are used only
for small quantities, and are of the same gender as the noun where they
come from (here animate).
ucir-pas srates-eli tuupla-o zoepa-e meme-o
3i-see-const-3rl 3i-cover-3sel fear-def darkness-const
child-def
ae,
END
I didn't understand this sentence. So I made a word-by-word
translation. I hope you will find a meaning to this insane thing :) .
NOTE: unlike other emotions, and like feelings like love, 'fear'
is
animate.
ucir-pas fadha-e vraot-proc-eiri int-e yan
3i-see-const-3rl richness-const 3sel-break-3il pstem-def love-const
cres-eud vraot-uuf' cr-eluum ae,
spouse-3pes 3sel-for spouse-3sel END
The pro-stem 'int' is here used as a resumptive to mark the
function
of the antecedent in the relative clause.
'spouse' is also a word with mandatory possession. It is an
epicene
word in Chasma"o"cho.
"uuf'" is a preposition coming from the verb 'uufa"ce': to give
to. It has the meaning of the dative 'to', or the benefactive 'for'. The
prefix
on it is just there as it agrees with its complement (here the object
following it) as a verb.
NOTE: 'love', as all feelings, is animate. this word is special,
as
its construct state is identical to the normal state.
: eufadi-pent-aesti, eufadi-pent-aesti akmi-queva Asclepyos :
|
3pel-praise-1pl 3pel-praise-1pl pl-eye-3sml Asclepios
'eye' also has mandatory agreement and is animate.
Okay, I hope I gave you enough explanations, and that it won't
be too
difficult for you to translate this text. Personally I found it very
difficult. What do you think of it? If you have any problem, don't
hesitate to contact me. I wish you a good time :) .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Done! Now if you want me to send it also to the conlang list, just tell
me :) . Have fun trying to decipher my prose :) .
--
Christophe Grandsire
Philips Research Laboratories -- Building WB 145
Prof. Holstlaan 4
5656 AA Eindhoven
The Netherlands
Phone: +31-40-27-45006
E-mail: grandsir@natlab.research.philips.com
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