Re: Reflexive (was Re: Help on Verbs...)

FFlores wrote:
>
> Theodore Kloba <ted.kloba@...> wrote:
>
> > It does seem that reflexive and middle voice are very similar.  I think it
> > depends on the way it's constructed ina particular language.
> >
> > Reflexive also occurs in some natural languages in constructions that would
> > be active voice in English.  Some IE Examples:
> >
> > "He is bored."
> > French "Il s'ennui" - He bores himself.
>
> Yes, it occurs in Spanish too, and the pronoun is of the same origin
> and spelling (_se_ for 3rd person). But it's not only reflexive. I've
> heard it called 'pseudo-reflexive'. The French above I would translate
> 'He gets bored'. In Spanish (and probably in French?) you have to use
> a explicit reflexive free pronoun (i. e. not a clitic like _se_) to
> mark a truly reflexive verb in such ambiguous cases:
>
>         Il se aburre a sm mismo.
>         "He gets bored to/bores himself"
>
> where _sm_ is not the word for 'yes' :) but the free form of the
> reflexive 3rd person singular pronoun, and _mismo_ means 'same'
> and is used for emphasis.
>
        Yes, we would use in French: "Il s'ennuie lui-me^me" : he bores
himself. The interesting thing about the so-called "verbes reflechis" in
French is that they often have no reflexive meaning at all, and they
need another pronoun (here "lui-me^me": himself) to get a true reflexive
meaning. In that respect, I find that they are a little like the
deponent verbs in Latin or Greek.

> --Pablo Flores
>   http://draseleq.conlang.org/pablo-david/
--
        Christophe Grandsire

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