Re: Intergermansk

Intergermansk seems to have generated quite a bit of mail - nice to have
things about conlangs  ;)

On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 10:31 , Andreas Johansson wrote:

> Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <pkramm@...>:
>
>
>> Not occuring in continental Scandinavian? That's simply not true!
>> I have a Swedish course from the Bussiness school in Helsinki, and they
>> do
>> have /x/ (and also /C/, e.g. in tj- words).
There are English speakers who have [C] in words like _huge_ and _human_ -
but the sound I was talking about is [x], which different.

>> It also said that a good amount
>> of speakers preferred to pronounce the /S/ sound (of sj- and sch- words)
>>  as
>> /x/. So I thought that /x/ would be just fine there.
>
> See my other mail. I'll just further not that there is no *other* /x/
> sound than
> the "/S/" sound of sj- and sch- words (which you, if you know what's good
> for
> you, won't *ever* pronounce as [S]!).
Yep - obviously the stuff I have here about Swedish is a bit out of date.
What, however, I was talking about was was the [x] which had developed
from an earlier [k], where in English & Scandinavian we either have 'zero
consonant' or /k/ (or in Danish /g/), for example:
   Eng: seek
  Germ: suchen
Dutch: zoeken
   Dan: søge
  Swed: söka

   Eng: book
  Germ: Buch
Dutch: boek
   Dan: bog
  Swed: bok

   Eng: night /najt/
  Germ: Nacht
Dutch: nacht
   Dan: nat
  Swed: natt

AFAIK the continental Scandinavian languages behave pretty much the same
way as English in such words; they do not use [x].

I had not realized, I admit, that /S/ in modern Swedish was now (generally/
always?) pronounced [x]. That is interesting, and parallels the change of
earlier Spanish /S/ to the modern /X/ as, for example, in _Mexico_
/'meSiko/ --> _Mejico_ /'meXiko/.
======================================================

> On Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 12:40 , Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> Gary Shannon wrote:
>>>> I have a copy of the opening of the Pater Noster in
>>>> the 1902 version:
My quoting the 1902 Tutonish version:
>>>> Vio fadr hu bi in hevn,
>>>> holirn bi dauo nam,
>>>> dauo reik kom,
>>>> dauo vil bi dun an erd,
>>>> as it bi in hevn.
>>>
>>> --- "Pascal A. Kramm" <pkramm@...> wrote:
>>> Ouch... looks odd (especially that "dauo"). Just
>>> glad that it's apparently
>>> long dead already :)
>>
>> I just saw the "dauo" as a minor variation of "thou"
>> and it seemed quite natural to me.
>
> ..and presumably -o marks the possessive (vi/o, dau/o).
Yes, I would think that is so. The use of the final -o is a bit odd.
Presumably it marks a possessive adjective. But _vi_ and _dau_ do not
strike me as particularly odd. I guess the final -n in _holirn_ and _dun_
is a past participle -n that we see in words like _seen_, _done_,
_written_ etc which has cognates in the other Germanic langs.

For me "...hu bi in hevn" and "...vil bi dun an erd, as it bi in hevn" has
the feel of an English creole. I find it oddly attractive  :)
============================================
On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 10:46 , Bryan Parry wrote:

> ">Vio fadr hu bi in hevn,
> holirn bi dauo nam,
> dauo reik kom,
> dauo vil bi dun an erd,
> as it bi in hevn."
>
>
> Wow, I really like that. Does anyone have any more
> information on this (ISBN, online sources etc)?
I got my information from Rick Harrison's "Bibliography of Planned
Languages (excluding Esperanto)" which he cmpiled during 1992 to 1995. The
exclusion of Esperanto is not for any partisan reasons - it is just that
it is very easy to find publications on Esperanto. As Rick wrote in his
introduction:
"Unfortunately, it is often very difficult to find information about
planned languages other than Esperanto. I have complied this bibliography
in hopes of making such information more accessible."

I did a browse today and I find a copy of the bibliography is currently
hosted at:
http://htliu.nease.net/biblio.html

It would seem that Elias Molee probably had some vision of a 'Anglo-german'
  or Germanic English as the national language of the USA. The references I
have are:

"Plea for an American language or Germanik-English, with a grammar, reader
and vocabulary", published by John Anderson, Chicago, 1888.

"Germanik English: a scheme for uniting the English and German languages",
published in Bristol, South Dakota, 1889

"Pure saxon English", published by Rand-McNally, 1890

"Regular English or Nugotic", published in Bristol, South Dakota, 1893

"Tutonish: a Teutonic international language", published in Tacoma, 1901

"Tutonish or Anglo-german union tongue", published by Scroll Publishing Co.
, Chicago, 1902

"Tutonish: a teutonic international language", published in Tacoma, 1904

"Neuteutonish", published in Tacoma, 1906

"Alteutonik", published in Tacoma, 1915

I guess we must give the guy full marks for effort  :)

Ray
=======================================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com
=======================================================
"If /ni/ can change into /A/, then practically anything
can change into anything"
          Yuen Ren Chao, 'Language and Symbolic Systems"

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