Re: Syntactic differences within parts of speech

Hi!

Jonathan Knibb writes:
>...
> I'd be curious to know how native speakers of German feel about
> this. I just used the example:
>
> - The flower [which] I bought several weeks ago is still on the table.
>
> ....which in my rusty German (apologies for the likely mistakes) could
> come out as either of the following:
>
> - Die Blume, die/welche ich seit einigen Wochen gekauft habe, steht
> noch auf dem Tisch.
> - Die seit einigen Wochen [von mir?] gekaufte Blume steht noch auf dem
> Tisch.
>
> Is there a difference between the two in whether the relative clause
> is restrictive in meaning or not?
The participle is clearly restrictive, the relative clause can be
both, and context must tell.  To disambiguate, you could use the
particle 'ja', which makes it clearly descriptive:

  Die Blume, die ich ja vor einigen Wochen gekauft habe, steht noch
  auf dem Tisch.

In colloquial language, the participle construction is probably seldom
-- it feels more complicated and formal.

> Can both "die" and "welche" be used, and is there a difference in
> meaning?
Yes, and I don't perceive any semantic diffence, but 'welche' sounds
more formal/antiquated/turgid.

But you should use 'vor einigen Wochen' (i.e., 'several weeks ago'),
not 'seit einigen Wochen' (i.e. 'since several weeks'), since the
latter, like in English, expresses an ongoing action (lit.: *'The
flowers I've been buying since several weeks.').

ObConlang: in S17 (the wordless one), I've stolen the Japanese/Korean
style where internally headed relative clauses (IHRC) (a construction
unknown to English) are used for descriptive meaning, and externally
headed relative clauses (EHRC) (those that English and German use) for
restrictive meaning (I don't know whether the semantic distinction is
that clear in Japanese and Korean, but at least it is in my Conlang
:-)):

   EHRC:
       [kinou     kaitotta] sakana-wa ii.
       [yesterday bought]   fish-TOP  good.

       ('fish' is outside the relative clause, thus externally headed)

       'The fish [I] bought yesterday is good.'

   IHRC
      [kinou     sakana-o kaitotta]-no-wa   ii.
      [yesterday fish-OBJ bought]  -RES-TOP

      ('fish' is inside the relative clause and referred to from the
      outside by the resumptive particle 'no').

        'The fish, which I bought yesterday, is good.'
     or 'The fish, which was bought yesterday, is good.'

(Please don't hesitate to correct mistakes in my badly broken
Japanese.)

**Henrik

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