Re: elv ned'm concurrent pronoun systems

Sally Writes:

> Ditto ditto ditto... I find this system fascinating, Joe, and want you t=
o
>  elucidate it.  What would make such a language change the pronouns
>  to affect the verb?  Do you have another system of pronouns to
>  reflect, say, delight?  And like Pablo, I'm curious how you mark
>  subjects that aren't pronouns?  It seems immensely original but
>  ultimately unworkable and cumbersome.  But I'm drawn to it.
>  It's as though the speaker (or doer) has to change personalities to exp=
ress
>  delight, violence, or neutrality instead of familiarity or formality,
>  which it vaguely echoes.
>
An important thing to keep in mind is that essentially the same group of
sounds, a "word" when used with pronoun system 1 and pronouns system 2,
essentially become homonyms with (usually) no intentional connection in
meaning.  As for origins, I was thinking perhaps ned'm was formed by the c=
lash
of two languages.  While language 1 was the indigenous language and its
pronouns have become the pronouns in system 1, The system 2 pronouns and t=
he
subsequent meanings that they indicate in verbs come from a different
language.  I was thinking that this language had its nominative pronouns f=
used
to the beginnings of its verbs.  When words were introduced to language 1,=
 one
of two things happened.  If a word wasn't easily confused with any existin=
g
word, it was absorbed into the language as is, using pronoun system 1 only=
.
If the word from langauge 2 sounded like a verb or other type of word from
language 1, it retained its language 2 pronoun.  Thus the "words" that hav=
e
two meanings and use two pronoun systems are actually a sort of  homonym.
There are some homonymous[?] verbs which don't use two pronoun systems, bu=
t
their meanings are very obvious from context (and i tend to doubt they wer=
e a
result of friction between the two languages).   as for pronouns to indica=
te
delight, etc., its not the pronouns indicating anything about the verb exc=
ept
its pedigree (except for words coined into the system) and which meaning i=
t is
taking in a situation.  I suppose I made a mistake of using loy (1-to like=
,
2-to molest) as an example because it could easily indicate that there is
necessarily to be a link between a word's two meanings.  The most useful (=
if
thats's possible) implementation of the two pronoun systems is when the tw=
o
meanings of a word take similar sorts of objects.  Here is a better exampl=
e
than 'loy':

roo'al: 1- to put in order, collate.  2- to paint, cover with a liquid tha=
t is
meant to remain on the surface of something

d'peng lau renggey em roo'al gebikengich tsipeng.
FUT-she expectation it-ACC you-1 collate those-paper-her-PLU towards-her.
She'll expect you to collate those papers of hers for her.

pengka loo renggey goo roo'al gebrstengich tsipeng
she-PAST want it-ACC you-2 paint those-notebook-cover-her-PLU towards-her
She wanted you to paint her notebook covers for her.

When the subject isn't a pronoun there is left-shifting and the pronoun is
added after the subject itself.  when there is an unspecific subject (as i=
n
pseudopassive forms) the pronoun =F3 (someone, often translated as "they" =
in
English) is used.  system 2 pronouns are for all intents and purposes
mandatory.

Roger dey tsekuv roo'al gebikoolich v ilee
Roger, 3s do-PERFECTIVE paint those-water-color-paper-PLU is lovely.
Roger has painted lovely scenes (on these pieces of watercolor paper)

Whether or not this system will add to or detract from my language I am no=
t
yet sure.  I will continue to work with the system, taking into account th=
e
very interesting questions and comments I have been given here.

>It seems immensely original but ultimately unworkable and cumbersome
I think that it seems that way because of how you are interpreting my mean=
ing.
perhaps your perception will weaken (or intensify) upon reading this.  Tha=
nks
for the feedback
pacs precs
Joe Mondello