Re: USAGE: /pf/ (was: Announcement: New auxlang "Choton")

Quoting "J. 'Mach' Wust" <j_mach_wust@...>:

> On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 14:53:17 +0200, Andreas Johansson <andjo@...> wrote:
>
> >Quoting Henrik Theiling <theiling@...>:
> >
> >> When I pronounce it, there is no need to adjust the position of the
> >> jaw to switch from bilabial to labiodental.  My upper teeth already
> >> touch the lower lip while the plosive is closed by the upper lip.
> >> When the plosive part opens, there is no need to adjust anything: the
> >> [f] is already perfectly in position for the fricative part.  So I'd
> >> say that although not exactly the same point of articulation, it is
> >> still an affricate since nothing is moved, since upper-lip with
> >> lower-lip and upper-teeth with lower-lip can touch at the same time.
> >
> >That's one funny affricate! Trying it, I can just about manage it in
> >isolation. I won't be able to use it in connected speech anytime soon. It's
> >just crying to get transformed into either [pp\] or a labiodental affricate
> >(which apparently isn't IPAically representable).
>
> I'd say it is a labiodental affricate, and that's also what Henrik has
> described. As I understand it, a labiodental closure means that the lower
> lip touches the upper lip, e.g. in the labiodental nasal /F/ in |emphatic|.
> BTW, is there any language that has a labiodental nasal not only before [f,
> v]?
Thing is, in Henrik's description his upper and lower lips touch during the
plosive part, which they shouldn't during a pure labiodental affricate, at
least not when between two vowels, like in _Apfel_.

I seem to recall some African language has a phonemic labiodental nasal that
contrasts with /m/ and /n/.

> >Do your upper teeth touch you lower lip when producing a simple [p]?
>
> I'd be very surprised if so. (Though I'd be less surprised if such a
> pronunciation were found in some place in North-Rhine Westphalia.) In that
> respect, there's no difference between German /p/ and English /p/.
Well, it had never occured to me to ask whether it might in English /p/ either
before today!

                                                      Andreas