Re: Translation to Latin

On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 4:31 PM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:

> maikxlx wrote:
> > Here's my (long time lurker) crack at it.  The most literal translation
> > seems to go:
> >
> > Sine honore pugnanda, sine gloria triumphatur. - By fighting without
> honor,
> > it is triumphed without glory.
>
> Except that _pugnanda_ does not mean "by fighting"! That is _pugnando_
> (ablative of the gerund).
>
> _pugnanda_ is a gerundive, either feminine nominative or ablative (a woman
> who has to be fought) or neuter plural nom. & acc. (things which have to be
> fought).

Oops! Of course I intended to say _pugnando_, the ablative of the gerund,
and not the feminine gerundive, nor the non-existent "feminine gerund" :-P.




> OK - my twopen'orth:
>
> I like the use of chiasmus that has been suggested. The main contrast
> surely is between "without honor" ~ "without glory", so I would put these
> two phrases at the two opposite ends. The most impersonal passive is the
> more literal rendering of the French, so:
>
> sine honore pugnatur, triumphatur sine gloria.
>
> But I do like Edgards's
>
> nullus honor in proelio, in triumpho nulla gloria.
>
> I guess after these suggestions, it's up to maikxlx to decide    :)
>
Well, that's quite an honor to bestow on a lurker!  The orginal sentence
was:
   [French]: « À combattre sans honneur, on triomphe sans gloire. »
   [English]: « With fighting without honor, one triumphs without glory. »

First, adding the suggested chiasmus and fixing the error renders my own
translation:

- Sine honore pugnando, triumphatur sine gloria. By fighting without honor,
it is triumphed without glory.

The gerund provides a rather literal translation, but it is probably
needlessly precise.  IMO Edgar's translation is smooth, but somewhat less
literal:

 -Nullus honor in proelio, in triumpho nulla gloria - No honor in battle, in
triumph no glory.

IMO Ray's translation is both smooth and literal:

- sine honore pugnatur, triumphatur sine gloria - Without honor it is
fought, it is triumphed without glory.

So I would endorse Ray's translation on balance, although it's really up to
the orginal poster to digest this conversation and decide!

Reply