Re: OT: Negation as the indicative standard

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Philippe Caquant wrote:

> This is called irony, consisting of letting understand
> the contrary of what's been said.
Most certainly not, though there is a myth amongst (some) Americans and
Brits that sarcasm is irony (Terry Pratchett for one...). Sarcasm is when
you directly say the opposite of what you mean (and doesn't need to be
offensive or biting, but can express something similar to compasion, as
when you say 'fun' when someone describes an unenjoyable they have
just/are just about to experience(d), or 'exciting' for boredorm et sim).

Irony, on the other hand, is much more of a literary technique (though it
need not be). It relies on having an audience of at least two groups:
those who take what you say on its surface level (e.g. characters in a
play) because they lack the insight of the other group (e.g. the plays
audience), who know what you *really* mean. (Of course, plain-and-simple
lying, deception and the like isn't ironic, but nor is it sarcasm.) It can
also be an event the opposite of what seems like it should happen, but I
don't really think of this as irony except when it's in a story for the
purpose of irony.

> The tone can help to
> detect irony, but what if it's a written texte (with
> no smileys, of course) ?
>
> It has been proposed sometimes to use a special
> typographic sign call an "irony point". In my opinion,
> it's not a good idea: it's much more fun to use blank
> irony, without any clues. So they will be the ones to
> understand it, and the ones who don't (and the ones
> who wonder: is he joking ? is he not ?). Much more
> exciting.
Well, certainly with irony it defeats the purpose to include a mark to say
you're being ironic, but with sarcasm, it could certainly be helpful (at
least when using it to express compassion or humor or something, rather
than when you're trying to belittle them. (In general with compassion/
understanding it'll be plainly obvious, it's humor that can sometimes get
in the way.)

> (Is what I just wrote some kind or irony ? Well, it's
> up to you...)
No; or if it was, it's very poorly done.

--
Tristan.

> --- Gary Shannon <fiziwig@...> wrote:
> > --- Doug Dee <AmateurLinguist@...> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > OTOH, I now seem to recall reading somewhere about
> > a
> > > language (in Africa?)
> > > that allegedly expressed negation solely by a
> > change
> > > of tone (on the verb, I
> > > think).
> > >
> > > Doug
> >
> > What about the sarcastic tone in English.  "Yeah,
> > sure, I believe you."  Meaning "I do NOT believe
> > you."
> >
> > --garyyou."  Meaning "I do NOT believe you."
> >
> > --gary
>
>
> =====
> Philippe Caquant
>
> "Le langage est source de malentendus."
> (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)
>
> __________________________________
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--
Tristan

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