Re: OT: Two Towers movie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Isidora Zamora" <isidora@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 3:39 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Two Towers movie


> At 03:34 AM 8/30/03 +0400, you wrote:
> >I agree with most of the comments! Good to know I'm not the only one to
> >think so ;-)
>
> Glad to know that my husband and I aren't the only ones sharing these
opinions.
>
> > > Well, Aragorn falling over a cliff is not one of the best ideas in the
> > > movie.
> >
> >Neither is kissing with the horse.
>
> Neither is kissing with Arwen.  My kids hate those scenes, and so do I.  I
> understand why they put them in, but, in all honesty, I have a very hard
> time imagining Aragorn and Arwen kissing on the lips before they were
> married; it just doesn't seem to fit my image of their relationship and
the
> culture they lived in.
???

I really can't see where you're coming from here.  People have kissed since
time immemorial, married or not.  Especially in a pre-christian
culture(though the 'christian' bit obviously doesn't apply here).  And the
key word here is 'my', I believe.

> > > And the wargs don't look a bit like any picture of a
> > > wolf that I've ever seen.  (My daughter says they look like
> > > a cross between a pig and a sheep and a bull.)
> >
> >They look more like a badly rendered cross of hyenas and bears IMO.
>
> That's interesting to hear you say that.  You're very perceptive.  I just
> finished watching the extras that come with the movie, and there is a
> featurette on "The Creatures of Middle Earth."  In the section on the
> wargs, someone from Weta says that they "are very closely aligned to a
> bear, wolf, hyena hybrid."  And I agree with you on "badly rendered."
I don't see the problem.  They look closest to wolves, and that is what they
are called.

> > > (The Last Alliance of Elves and Men really was the last
> > > alliance, and the two races have mostly gone their separate
> > > ways in the millenia since.)
> >
> >Good point. Especially applies to the Rohirrim, with their distrust to
> >everything Elvish.
>
> And I am further aggravated that King Theoden explicitly refuses to call
> for help from Gondor, saying, in essence that they wouldn't help
> him.  Anyone who has read Tolkein enough knows that, if the Rohirrim had
> called for help, the only thing that would have ever kept Gondor from
> sending assistance is if Gondor had been under attack and truly had no men
> to spare from it's own defense (which did happen once.)  In any case, the
> whole thing is sort of a moot point, since they are talking about calling
> for help with the enemy already bearing down on them.  There was no time
to
> send for help.  Theoden's lack of trust in Gondor is completely out of
> character.
Isn't this a little petty?  I'd scarcely say that it matters in the
slightest.

> > > The Rohirrim have to be completely believable as a
> > > brave and heroic people.
> >
> >I have to admit they are, to me.
>
> My overall impression was that they were, but that was largely the effect
> of Eomer and his eored, and also Theoden at certain moments.  (But at
other
> moments, he seemed to give something of the opposite impression.)  Threre
> seem to be two characterizations of the Rohirrim going on simultaneously
> and fighting with each other.  One is the correct characterization of them
> as heroic warriors.  The other is the impression you get when you see the
> young boys and the old men arming for the coming battle with fear or
> despair in their faces; the impression you get when either Legolas or
> Aragorn characterizes them as farmers.  My impression of the Rohirrim was
> that every man and boy knew how to ride and fight as well as to farm.  I
> don't mind the shots of 12-15 year old boys being armed for battle,
because
> that is probably truthful.  In such an emergency, they would have fought
to
> the best of their ability.  But I am not convinced that there would have
> been fear in their faces.
Your impression.  But bloody hell, if your a 500 strong band of old men and
boys, going against a 10000 strong army of orcs,  tough orcs, at that,
wouldn't you be looking a bit despairing?  Even if you would fight to the
bloody end.  And, of course, the film is a seperate entity to the book, and,
as such, does not have to remain 100% truthful to it, providing the plot is
not hugely effected.

>
> > > I also really disliked the way that they had Gandalf
> > > "exorcize" Saruman from Theoden.
> >
> >Oooh... :-( No words can describe my wrath at that
>
> It was completely unbelievable.  Tolkein did it better (of course), and
> they should have stuck to their source material.
>
> Another nit to pick: once Theoden was un-aged, he was too young -- by a
> couple decades.  King Theoden was around 70 at the time of his
> death.  Here's an idea: of course Cristopher Lee makes the perfect
Saruman,
> but I think that he would have also made an excellent Theoden.  (My two
> cents worth.  Not that I think they cast him wrong; they didn't.)
I do agree on this point, it was a little over the top.

> > > There had to have been a better way of handling the Entmoot.
> > > The movie
> > > totally reversed the decision of the ents and Pipin had to
> > > trick Treebeard into changing his mind.
> >
> >Well, in FotR, the fools were Merry and Pippin. Now Gimli was the fool
> >(and a very bad one at that),
>
> Don't get my husband started on that one.  He hates using Gimli as comic
> relief.  The only time where I though that this was somewhat appropriate
> was where Gimli is telling Eowyn about Dwarf women.  The material was
> basically straight out of the Appendices.
Meh.  Doesn't bother me.  Still, I didn't think he did a bad job of it, on
the whole.

> >  and they just had to do some job -
> >especially since it's rumoured that the Scouring of the Shire is not
> >about to be in the film!
>
> I suppose that's one way of looking at it: that they had to have something
> to do.  We've also heard the rumors that the Scouring of the Shire will
not
> be in the movie.  And it makes sense to leave it out; LOTR has just about
> the longest denoument of any book that I know.
>
> > > What they did to Faramir is just inexcusable -- and so far,
> > > inexplicable.
> >
> >Yes. And his hair was raven! (I just choke with joy as imagine that
> >scene of Faramir and Eowyn standing on the wall when Mordor falls, and
> >their hair mixing in the wind - raven and gold. *Very* sad to learn it's
> >not going to be there. Apparently we're about to get three hours of
> >fighting with a happy end...)
>
> Actually, that was just my own conjecture that that relationship would be
> dropped from the movie for lack of time.  My husband's conjecture is that
> it will be in the movie because they have to resolve the love triangle
> between Aragorn, Arwen, and Eowyn.  I've alway's really loved the love
> story between Faramir and Eowyn.
>
> And, yes, I did notice that they got his hair color wrong, and there's
> simply no excuse for that IMO.  They're all wearing wigs; why not get a
wig
> of the right color.  (Incidentally, did anyone else imagine the Rohirrim
> with more flaxen hair?  Their hair doesn't seem blonde enough in the
> movie.  It might just be me, here.)
Simply no excuse?  Over a matter of hair colour?  Now that, IMO, is petty.
I never even noticed the hair colour in the book.

> > > And what is this whole thing with Arwen apparently leaving
> > > for Valinor and Aragorn letting her?
> >
> >I think she'll run away and lead the Grey Company instead of Halbarad.
>
> I don't think that threre's going to be a Grey Company.  I base this on
the
> preview that I saw last night and this evening of Return of the King.  The
> Paths of the Dead are definately going to be in the movie.  I saw the
> entrance to them and a shot from inside the Paths.  However, it was only
> Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli at the Haunted Door.  There was no Grey
Company
> with them.  Another point of interest, in the shot from inside the Paths,
> Aragorn is walking with a sword drawn -- and that sword is
> Narsil/Anduril.  (You can tell by the hilt: the grip is very long and
> flares at the end and has a wedge-shaped cut-out in the flared area.)  I
> wonder how he gets Anduril, since he let it at home still broken.
>
> >What they did to Elrond was awful - all that stuff about the fate of
> >(puny) mortals. In the first movie, his stance was excusable, if not to
> >my taste. In the second one, he is verily an Elvish chavinist
>
> Don't get my husband started on that one either.
>
> And I have all respect for Hugo Weaving as an actor; he's an excellent
> actor.  Unfortunately, there is really nothing that any makeup department
> can do with Hugo Weaving's face to make it look very attractive, and Elves
> are suposed to be, well, beautiful.
>
>
> > > Eowyn, OTOH, was awesome, and so was Gollum.
> >
> >Eowyn was very good in that she is an excellent actress. It *is* very
> >believable. The trouble is that the makeup makes her look much older
> >than she is in the book.
>
> I hadn't noticed that before, but I think that you are right.
>
> >  Also, the hints of a relationship between Eowyn
> >and Aragorn are far too obvious, and give a very wrong impression of
> >Eowyn's (and Aragorn's) feelings
>
> That it does.  It is made worse by the impression given that Arwen is
> leaving Middle Earth.  The moment that Aragorn recognized the feelings
that
> Eowyn had for him, he drew back from her.
>
> >What I loved about the film was Rohan (apart from the exorcism business
> >and the minor quibble I worte about in my previous posts). The landscape
> >and everything is awesome. But still I think it's, if a good film, a bad
> ><sw>filmatisering</sw> of Tolkien.
>
> Rohan was wonderful.  (Aside from the grumbles that you mentioned, and the
> general lack of grooming.)  The musical themes from Rohan are absolutely
my
> favorite in the movie.
>
> For your amusement, some cosmological errors that my husband and I have
> come up with:
>
> When you see Gandalf lying on the mountain peak and sort of travel in
> through his eyes and see the stars...there are gas clouds, nebulae, and
> other extraneous materials floating in space.  Those shouldn't be there if
> this is Arda.  Varda made the stars, and they are lights in the sky, not
> other suns far away.  (My husband noticed this.)
Could not the nebulae and gas clouds be, well, actual clouds?  Just a
thought.

> That orc is holding onto the pendant that Arwen gave to Aragorn.  No orc
> could hold a piece of Elvish workmanship like that in his hand; it would
> burn him.  (My husband noticed this one.)
He was dying at the time.  I don't think he particularly cared.

> Gandalf comforts Theoden on the death of his son saying that his spirit
was
> strong in life and will make its way to the halls of his fathers, or
> something like that.  Not in Arda it won't.  The souls of Men do not go to
> the Halls of Mandos, but pass westward and depart from Arda.  What happens
> then is anybody's guess as far as I have been able to gather from anything
> that I have read.  (I noticed this one myself quite recently.)
I suppose this speaks of whatever heaven Men go to when they die.  Whatever
the Rohirrim believe, that is(which I suppose is some kind of Valhalla).

> Well, it is already past 10:30 local time, and I ought to finish writing
up
> about the funeral rites of one of my constructed cultures before I get too
> sleepy to do it.  (And eventually, I need to construct the language for
> this and other cultures, but not tonight.)
>
> Isidora
>