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Re: The Combos [hj] [hw] and [gw] in Conlangs

From:DOUGLAS KOLLER <laokou@...>
Date:Wednesday, November 1, 2000, 6:37
From: "LeoMoser(Acadon@Acadon.com)"

> In-re HJ:
> Japanese seems to > have it, with romanizations with {HY-} but I'm > not sure how these end up pronounced in > certain parts of Japan.
Well, I can't speak for all of Japan, but in the standard, it's certainly allowed. "Hyaku" (hundred) springs readily to mind. A good number of words with "hyo" or "hyoo". The only word with "hyu" I can think of right now is a loan: "hyuuzu" for English "fuse".
> It is in some Chinese > "dialects" but not Mandarin.
Hokkien and Hakka allow it.
> Can any of you cite languages that make > regular use of [hj] or close approximations?
Géarthnuns allows it: "híozçets" - "program", "híenzöth" - "destroy", "híau" - "all".
> In-re HW:
> Chinese has many words in {HUA} {HUO} > etc. those these differ a bit in that the {H} > may be [x], not [h].
[x] and [h] are allophones, so I think it's fair to let (Mandarin) Chinese into the "hw" club. Shanghainese, Hokkien, and Hakka lean more to [h] to my ear and all allow it.
> What other natural or constructed languages > make use of [hw-] or have (more or less) > similar sounds?
Not allowed in Géarthnuns.
> In-re GW:
>Chinese has > it (in the unvoiced/unaspirated form).
Shanghainese and Cantonese have similar. Hokkien has the voiced form and "gw" is allowed: "ggwa2", "I".
> Probably not in Japanese, > despite "guai" (condition) etc.
Off hand, I am not familiar with this word and have no idea how one would write it in kana.
> This would imply that [gw-] may not be very > common beyond the western European area.
Though you've cited the major East Asian languages. This is certainly allowed in Géarthnuns: "gwans" - "lock", "gwérabs" - "might, strength", "gwaul" - "croak (ref. to frogs)", "gwédiz" - "set foot in, enter". You've made an interesting observation. Alas, I wish I knew some other languages with these sounds that I could throw your way. Me, I've always thought it strange that many conlangs (including my own) have [T] and/or [D] which, I've assumed, are relatively rare out there in real lang land. For my lang, it was because, my assuming they were rare, it added to the exoticism back when I cared about such things and the language was first forming. "Hj" and "gw" never even crossed my mind as exotic; they were just natural extensions of the Géarthnuns sound system. By rights, "hw" ought to be possible too, but orthographic constraints elbow it out of the system. Kou