Re: LUNATIC SURVEY: 2005
| From: | Phil Bordelon <phil@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Tuesday, March 1, 2005, 3:37 |
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Sally Caves wrote:
> LUNATIC SURVEY 2005, by Sally Caves
[snip]
Guess it's time for me to delurk more than the two or three messages I
posted.
Fair warning: I'm very, very new to all this stuff--IPA, morphosyntax,
lions, tigers, bears. Forgive my ignorance.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> A. PROFESSION, DEMOGRAPHICS, INCLINATION:
>
> 1. Who are you, and what is the name of your invented language or
> languages? Pseudonyms allowed. (Are you using one? asked "Sally Caves")
Phil Bordelon; not a pseudonym. The languages are currently called
Fere and Elambic, but the former is the name of the primary species
that speaks it (Feresen, whose name means "We People" in their own
language), and the latter was made up on the spot for this survey.
> *2. Are you new to the Lunatic Survey or have you filled out a version
> of this survey before?
New.
> 3. Do you have a website for you language/world(s)? If so, please list
> the URL address.
Nothing yet. Story rounds set in the framework of the Fere language can
be found at:
http://thenexusproject.org/non-canon/projects/sdhlain/
but what you see there on the front page is about all that I've actually
webalized on my ideas of the language.
> 4. What is your email address? name at hostsite dot whatever.
gro tod tcejorpsuxeneht ta lihp (only, y'know, not quite.)
> 5. What is your age? (vague answers allowed, but it is an important
> demographic)
24.
> 6. What is your gender?
Male. (Left-handed, bisexual, beardless, and Alithuanian.)
> 7. What is your nationality? Where do you live now?
US, still there. (Louisiana, to be more precise. Acadiana, to go
further.)
> 8. What is your native language?
English.
> 9. What natural languages foreign to you have you studied or do you speak?
Studied French for many years, and know very little of it (which is a
damn shame, as my parents speak very fluent Cajun French ... -sigh-)
> 10. What is your level of education? i.e., your highest degree achieved
> or sought?
Bachelors (in computer engineering).
> 11. What is your profession? Are you a professional linguist? If so,
> what also makes you a conlanger?
I'm an 'applications analyst,' which is code for 'systems administrator
and code monkey.'
> 13. If you are a student, what is your major or your area of study?
N/A at the moment, although I plan on going back and getting a Masters
in psychology.
> 14. How long have you been developing your invented language(s)?
Hm. Both have been in the works for a couple of years. Three or so?
Sure. Sounds fine.
> 15. At what age did you first start inventing a language? Can you
> briefly describe your early efforts?
No really invented languages until these, although I used to play
a lot with reversing words, igpay atinlay, etc. Also coined a lot
of words to use with friends in middle and high school; not so much
to make a language, really. More for inside joke purposes.
> 16. What drew you to start inventing a language and/or constructed
> world? What was the inspiration?
I'm working on a series of interconnected short stories/novels/what
have you, and the characters involved needed something to speak.
Thus came the languages.
> 17. Did you start inventing before you had heard of the list or after?
> Before you had heard of Esperanto or Tolkien? (I name the two most
> common inspirations)
Before the list; after Esperanto and Tolkein. Tolkein may have been a
subconscious inspiration, but I doubt Esperanto is.
> 18. Tolkien calls it a "shy art" and a "secret vice"; but that was
> before the Internet. How secret do you keep it from others outside this
> list for much the same reasons?
I don't keep it secret, but it's not something that comes up in general
conversation. That said, you can play a game of mine called Caeth Y via
eMail at gamerz.net, and its name comes straight from Elambic. Another
game I recently invented is called Keherei Naheri, which is "Give and
Take" in Fere. If anyone ever cared enough to ask me about why the
games are named the way they are, I'd be delighted to explain it to
them ;)
> 19. Yaguello has called it "pathological," influenced, unfortunately, by
> a lot of psychiatric writings such as _Le Schizo et la langue_. To what
> extent have you encountered such reactions by outsiders you had taken
> into your confidence?
Mostly indifference, really. No hostility or feelings of
pathologicalness.
> *20. Do you consider it nerdy to be doing this? This is a term that gets
> tossed around a lot. Or actually sophisticated? Do you need to get a
> life, or is this your life? What is a life?
Wow. "What is a life?" That's a hell of a question. I find it rather
geeky (not nerdy, really, but those are two words that are so
intertwined nowadays that I'm not even sure I could explain why I feel
that it's geeky and not nerdy ... except that "nerdy" always had a more
negative, not-as-smart connotation for me.) That said, geekiness and
sophistication are not two ends of a scale, and I think many conlangs
are both rather geeky and absolutely gorgeously sophisticated. My
conlangs are hardly a deep focus of my life, though, so I don't think
they're taking precious time away from "living." Whatever the hell
that is.
> 21. There has been a connection noted between linguistic and musical
> ability. Are you musically inclined? Do you sing and/or play a musical
> instrument? Do you compose music?
Not musically inclined at all. Which is very depressing, I'm afraid :/
Well, does being quite good at Dance Dance Revolution count? :)
> 22. There has been a connection noted between linguistic and
> mathematical ability. Are you mathematically inclined or inclined
> towards computing in any way?
Quite inclined to both. I'm a damn good programmer, and I'm pretty damn
good at high level math as well. Trig is evil incarnate, and I can do
algebra and calculus whilst pinching my nose, but graph theory and
combinatorics are quite tasty.
> 23. What other passions do you pursue that give you creative pleasure?
> (painting, drawing, sculpting, calligraphy, model-building, novel or
> story-writing, role-playing games, map-making, book-making, poetry,
> web-designing, star-gazing or other?)
Reading, writing, video gaming, and programming, in no particular order.
All give me creative pleasure of different types; it's great to be
immersed in other people's worlds, and quite fun to make your own.
> B. FEATURES OF YOUR INVENTION
>
> 1. Pick the best term for the invented language you are currently
> invested in: auxlang, artlang, engelang, loglang, lostlang,
> philosophical language, or "other." etc.
Artlang, a la Tolkien.
> 2. Is your conlang a priori (devised from scratch) or a posteriori
> (based on an existing natural language or drawing from a language class
> such as Semitic)?
A priori, both.
> 4. Do you have a script for your conlang? What is it called? Could you
> provide me at a later date with a sample of it? Is it on Langmaker's
> "neography" site?
No script for either yet; haven't gotten that far, really.
> 5. Briefly describe the outlines of your invented language (syntactical
> structure--VO, OV, etc.; class or type--analytic, synthetic,
> agglutinating, incorporative, accusative, ergative, active, trigger,
> other, combinations, etc.), noting what you have done with it that is
> innovative in your opinion.
Can't really answer that, as I don't have sentences in either yet. I'm
not sure I'll /ever/ give sentences in either. Right now they're just
vocabulary, really, with certain rules/styles of creation for said
vocab, but nothing to tie it all together.
> 7. How extensive would you say your invented language is, now? How big
> the vocabulary? Do you provide a vocabulary list or taxonomy on your
> website if you have one?
Very unextensive. Probably a hand's worth of words in Elambic, and
maybe three worth in Fere.
> 8. How do you build vocabulary? Some people pull words out of the air;
> others build up a base of root words and affixes. Many do both.
Roots are pretty much out of air. There are prefixes and suffixes that
mean things in Fere, but those come out of thin air too.
> 3. Does a constructed world accompany your invention(s)? What is it called?
Yes, there's a constructed world that both languages exist in. No name
for it yet, but I imagine that they call it "Earth" in their tongues.
> *9. Has your language and conworld ever served in a role-playing game or
> a world shared by other conlangers?
Nope.
> *10. Briefly describe your conculture (is it within the bounds of this
> world? on another world, etc.?)
Another world, fantastic Dark Ages-esque setting with more grit than
Tolkien. The Feresen are a species that can transform between something
like a wolf and human form (y'know, typing this out just makes it sound
sillier), whereas Elambic is spoken by some of the native humans.
> *11. Are the beings who speak your invented language human or alien? If
> alien, what features have you given the language to make it alien or how
> have you restricted or expanded its phonology? vocabulary?
They are both human-based species.
> 12. What do you write in it? Poems? chants? lullabyes? prayers? history?
> stories? recipes? Are any of these exhibited on your website?
Scattered words, mostly. What you see on that front page listed way up
there is about all that's available in general.
> 13. Can you speak your conlang? Are you fluent in it? Is this a goal for
> you? Have you tried to teach it to an intimate? a companion animal? :)
Nope, and it's not really a goal.
> 14. Have you made any soundbytes of your language? Could you provide me
> at a later date with a sample of them?
No soundbytes, no, but I could definitely provide you with some. The
only odd phonology in Fere is that the 'r' is pronounced with the tongue
popping against the back of the front part of the palate, somewhere
between an 'r' and a 'd.' I'm sure there's some clever IPA symbol for
that sound, and I'll be damned if I know it.
> *15. If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your
> writing system? In other words, do you use unconventional letters or
> letter combinations to represent sounds? Why or why not? I’m thinking,
> of course, of Etabnannery, for those who remember it.
Pretty much completely phonetic at the moment, with the note above. I
went through what vocabulary I have/remember and it's all pretty
regular.
> 16. How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for
> that purpose?
Nope.
> *17. How many of you, for entertainment or any other reason, resort to
> gibberish? (This is in response to Adrian Morgan’s question in
> December). Does it give you ideas for conlanging? (Have you ever fooled
> anyone?) How many of you have sung gibberish?
I'll occasionally do that to set friends off, but not for anything
useful.
> *18. What on-line games do you play? (or devise?) Translations,
> Babel-text, Relays, etc.
I take part in play-by-eMail games of abstract strategy, but somehow I
don't think this is what you're asking about. No games based on
language, although I used to be a pretty decent Ghost player.
> 19. Which do you prefer doing: devising phonology? script? structure?
> building vocabulary?
Vocabulary, cos that's all I've done so far.
> 20. Do you start and stop several different conlangs, or do you tend to
> stick with one and develop it over years?
Not sure this applies, but at the moment it's sticking with Fere, very
v-e-r-y slowly.
> 21. What do you think makes a "complete" conlang, if a conlang can
> attain completion? What are your goals for completion? When do you grow
> "tired" of your conlang, or don’t you?
When it's useful for the author's intent. If that's just for words to
spice up their stories, well, good. If they want to have something that
people can converse in, well, good too. I'm definitely not tired of
Fere or Elambic yet.
> *22. Which came first: the conlang or the conworld?
The chicken. Er, conworld.
> C. PHILOSOPHY AND AESTHETIC:
>
> 1. What aesthetic features do you value in inventing language? Be
> specific as to phonology, structure, script, etc.
I like it to sound nice and interesting, like something I'd like to hear
someone near me speaking, even if I didn't understand a lick of what
they said.
> 2. What commonly applied aesthetics have you ever tried to avoid in your
> invention? This has been an oft debated question, especially when it
> comes to Tolkien.
None, really.
> 3. Is difficulty or obscurity a goal in inventing a language?
I'm sure it is for someone. Not for me.
> 4. Is efficiency a goal in inventing a language? This question needn’t
> cancel out the previous one.
Efficiency? Not really sure what efficiency means. Ah, you mean the
language being efficient. Well, it doesn't hurt too much, because
that's what native speakers would do--strip out cruft and make the
language quicker to say. Does that mean it has to be a goal? Nope.
A small example, and perhaps the only one so far in Fere of derivation,
albeit in reverse: I've used the word 'kher' for "storyteller" for a
long time, one of the first words I invented. It's not so much
storyteller as, ah, scyld? I can't remember the word, but we went over
it when we discussed Beowulf back in the day. Sort of warrior-poet-bard
thingum. Anyway, when I was coming up with the name of Keheri Naheri,
I wanted it to be "Give and Take." So "keheri" means give, in the sense
that "ke-" means something like "away" or "out" and "heri" means
something like "move." This, of course, could reasonably get shortened
to 'kher,' because a storyteller is a very important part of Feresen
culture. They are Givers, in a sense.
> 5. How natural do you wish to make it, or is that a concern? Or rather,
> how unnatural do you wish to make it?
I want it to be mellifluous, at least to my own ears, but "naturalness"
isn't really a goal or an antigoal.
> 6. Can conlanging be sexy? sensual? obsessing? how does it heal or harm you?
All of the above, really. It's a good outlet, but it's nothing I'd want
to obsess over and disconnect from family and friends with.
> *7. How many of you have developed a rich vocabulary of obscenities?
None yet. Which is a glaring omission. :)
> 8. Can it be mystical? To what extent does conlanging fulfill a
> spiritual purpose for you? Or a magical one? Did it ever start out that
> way?
Not really mystical/spirtual for me, other than the sense of pleasure in
coming up with a new word that just "sounds right."
> 9. How many of you have developed a rich vocabulary of magical,
> religious, or incantatory terms?
Nope.
> *10. How many of you have striven to invent words that express novel
> ideas, or are not expressed in any natural language that you know?
Not really this either.
> 11. Name a few of the words in your language(s) that you are most
> pleased with and are the most original to you.
I'm rather fond with "keheri," "naheri," and "kher," for the reasons
above.
> 12. How do you sense that a word is "right" for its meaning? How much do
> you labor at fitting a sound to its sense? Or don’t you care?
I can't describe it--it just seems right in my mind or ears or
something. A sort of "aha" moment, when I play around with sequences
of roots and affixes (if any). It definitely matters to me when I'm
creating Fere, at least, since I want the language to sound pretty.
> *13. Do you ever rely on a software program to build vocabulary? Do
> those who don’t think that’s cheating? :)
Nope, but it's not cheating either. If Le Guin and Lojban can do it,
so can anyone else.
> *14. Is conlang a hobby, a craft, or an art in your mind? This has been
> hotly debated, so the question is not as weird as it seems. Can
> conlanging be considered an art? Why or why not?
It can be all three, depending on the intent of the creator and on the
way that the observer takes it. Quenya is a beautiful language, and I
find it artistic, whether Tolkien or not designed it to be. That said,
Fere is definitely a hobby for me, not craft or art. Although I'd
certainly like it to be artistic enough to not drive people mad if they
saw it in a story.
> *15. If it is, who do you think are its consumers?
Those who enjoy language, perhaps, or at least invented language. I
like the way certain languages sound, even if I don't understand them,
so I'm a consumer of euphony in that sense.
> *16. This question is directed as well at any auxlangers on the list. Is
> it an art, a political tool, both? And who do you think could be its
> consumers?
Not an auxlanger (although I intend to learn Lojban at some point.)
> *17. There has been some exciting talk recently (and over the years)
> about what a conlang is or is not. If you could pick a metaphor or write
> a descriptive phrase defining "conlang," what would that be?
A conlang is like any work of art, really--it may be "pretty," it may be
"ugly," it may be simple, it may be complex, but it almost always
conveys some feeling or emotion or purpose, an expression of the intent
of the author into the medium of language.
> *18. Why or why not would you eschew the metaphors "miniature" or "model"?
It depends on the language. If it's big and complex, or not based on
any real language, then what is it a "miniature" of? Just because the
canon isn't huge doesn't mean it can't be a viable language. The same
with "model." If the language is intended to model something, then
okay; if not, then that's okay too.
> *19. Is a conlang more like a glimpse of something lifesize? (Irina’s
> suggestion in 2001)
Depends on the complexity, I guess.
> *20. There has been some invigorating discussion lately about what a
> conlang can do that most natural languages don’t (such as produce OSV
> structure, or eradicate verbs) What experiments have you made with your
> artlang(s) along these lines?
None, really. Other than think about what sort of language a species
that doesn't exist would speak.
> *21 What do you think distinguishes a conlang from a natural language,
> if you think so at all? What would it take for a linguist to be fooled
> into thinking a conlang was a natural language?
Volume, perhaps, and direct invention by an individual or individuals,
but those are strictly surface concerns. The same with irregularity;
most conlangs have little irregularity, but most natural languages have
lots. That said, there's nothing keeping someone from making conlangs
that have lots of words and plenty of irregularities. That would
probably help fool a linguist into thinking a conlang was natural, but
I'm hardly an expert (or even mildly knowledgable) when it comes to
linguistics.
> *22. How much do you study other languages in order to discover what is
> natural in language? Or to discover how you can stretch the boundaries
> of language to make it do things that are unnatural?
Not much, really, although I've been known to spend hours browsing
language descriptions on the Wikipedia. It's more just to be fascinated
by the wide range of human languages than to crib notes for my own.
> *23. Can such a language function?
An unnatural language? Sure. Lojban is pretty damned unnatural, but
it sure looks like people can make cogent sentences, paragraphs, and
even stories in it. Esperanto's unnaturally regular, but there are
plenty of people who speak it.
> *24. There has been quite a bit of fascinating debate about the
> relevance of conlanging to linguistic study. We all know that
> linguistics can aid conlangers, but in what ways can conlangers aid
> linguists? Or does it matter?
I'm not qualified in any way to answer this, but I think that by testing
theories of construction conlangs can give a glimpse of what language is
capable of, whether real or constructed.
> D. THE LISTSERV
>
> 1. How did you first hear of this list?
A Wikipedia article, probably browsing deep off of the Lojban entry and
into the 'Constructed language' stuff.
> 2. How long have you been on this listserv or on other related
> listservs? Continuously? Infrequently? Off and on? More off than on and
> vice versa?
Continuously, for, um ... -checks- 28 days.
> *3. What is the appeal of being on a listserv and contributing to it? Do
> you think you contribute moderately or excessively, or not enough? Do
> you tend to lurk ?
I'm lurky, but I like being here. It's fascinating to read other
people's discussions, occasionally add a thought of your own, and in
general bask in the cleverness of others.
> *4. For those of you who remember its inception, how has it changed over
> the past decade?
N/A
> *5. How helpful has the list been in developing your language? In
> learning linguistic information?
Not much yet, but it sure has been interesting :)
> 6. What books have you consulted? On your own, or because you heard of
> them on the list?
None for my language, although I've flipped through the Quenya stuff in
Tolkien a bit and I own a copy of _The Complete Lojban Language_ in an
attempt to spend money to force myself to learn the damn thing.
> *7. Do you peruse the websites of other conlangers?
Yup.
> *8. Do you sense that people on this list are interested in your conlang
> and give you feedback on it?
No idea, but I've never mentioned my conlang before this survey. That
said, it sure looks like people get lots of good feedback, so, um, a
tentative yes?
> 9. Have you ever set out to learn at least a little bit of someone’s
> conlang, if only a word or two, or a phrase?
Yup. (Lojban, obviously, but also numbers and the like from random
conlangs.)
> *10. Do you peruse Jeffrey Henning’s Langmaker.com site?
Yup.
> *11. What on-line techniques do you use to showcase your conlang, such
> as Audacity or other sound programs, Dreamweaver, Illustrator,
> Fontography, and so forth? Did you hear of them on the list?
None yet. Well, vim for my website :)
> 12. Have you ever tried to introduce a friend to the list?
Nope.
> 13. Do you know of anyone who does this kind of thing but who has never
> heard of the list?
Nope.
> *14. What other lists do you frequent related to conlanging?
None. Although I lurk on some Lojban lists.
> *15. What do you think will be the future of the list? I see it giving
> birth to alternate lists like Conworld, Lostlanguages, Romlang, etc.
> What improves the present list and its helpfulness or entertainment value?
I haven't been here long enough to really get the zeitgeist of the whole
thing.
> *16. What Internet technology would you most like to see developed that
> would aid you in showcasing your language(s)?
A technology that'd give me another ten hours a day to work on stuff
like this? Um, nothing, really.
> *17. What lists like conlang exist in other cultures and languages that
> you know of?
None that I know of.
> *18. There has been some terrific talk about CONLANG as a community. And
> yet so many of us seem to want the world to know of it and respect it.
> Is the CONLANG community enough?
No community is never "enough," in my opinion. People come and go, and
you want both (although you're sadder for the latter.) I don't know
whether CONLANG is in a steady-state, decline, or anything, though.
> *19. In my 2000 on-line article
> (
http://journal.media-culture.org.au/0003/languages.php) I suggested
> that the Internet "may provide a site that, with the impetus of
> competition and showmanship, encourages inutile and obsessive activity";
> I was quoting Jeff Salamon’s article "Revenge of the Fanboys." Village
> Voice 13 Sep., 1994. He wrote that over ten years ago. Do outsiders
> still entertain such notions, do you think, about listservs like this
> one? Do you? To what extent has the list increased obsessive development
> in you? Would you be inventing as furiously as you are without the list
> or knowledge of other inventors?
> 20. If asked whether it is not better to turn your linguistic talents to
> the learning and speaking of natural languages (a common response I’ve
> met with and aimed at criticizing introversion or solipsism), how would
> you answer?
Why do people bother to write new stories? Aren't the old ones good
enough?
> *21. In Elizabethan times there were the inkhorn neologisms. There were
> ciphers and pasigraphies. Today there is conlanging. Do you think the
> contemporary world is more open to language innovation or more closed?
Open in the sense that I don't think you'll be burned as a witch for
inventing a language; closed in the sense that it's doubtful that "the
world" will give a damn about what you do. But that's why the Internet
is great--you can find groups scattered about the globe who /do/ give a
damn about what you do.
> *22. What would Tolkien have done with such a community? He writes in "A
> Secret Vice" that language inventors "hardly ever show their works to
> one another, so none of them know who are the geniuses at the game, or
> who are the splendid ‘primitives’." He suggests that perhaps in a later
> time language invention will become respectable, and such things can be
> exhibited. Have we reached that time?
We're here showing off our inventions to each other, huh? If it's not
the Golden Age, well, at least it's ramping up to it.
> *23. Is there a danger that over-exposure can make conlanging "banal"?
> To what extent is it exciting because it is a) considered disreputable,
> "corny" or "mad," or b) largely unknown to the world? Does it have a
> fizzle-out date? In other words, is it just a fad, or is it a natural
> human inclination that will stand the test of time?
A natural human inclination. Kids play with igpay atinlay from the
get-go, and they'll always want a way to hide their conversations from
stupid grownups. That'll keep 'em going if nothing else.
> Finally, may I have your permission to use any of this material of yours
> for my academic work on conlanging? First name? last name? pseudonym?
> anonymous?
Yup. Use of my first name is fine, but I'd rather keep it at that.
> Thanks!
Welcome.
P