Re: Nur-ellen in the world of Brithenig

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>> Like Dunein, the March still retains some of its native nobility. In
>> the case of Dunein, it was at one time an independant country. When
>> Kernow came to unite with Cambria; much of the political structure was
>> retained, but transmuted into a provincial structure. A number of
>> customs and a large portion of the legal system were retained as well.
>
>Similar to the way Scotland got integrated into the UK *here*, I guess.
Opinions will vary somewhat, but myths never lie. ;) In the folk
history, King Mark (of Cornovia) was hunting the white stag up around
the Sefern/Sabrenna and found himself in some difficulty having to do
with a thick fog. There, he met King Arthur (of Cambria) who had found
himself in a similar quandry. Through various adventures a great
friendship grew between them. And it was them who would eventually
craft the groundwork that would eventually lead to a unified country -
a nation even - that might survive the incursions of the Bloody Saxon.
And there was much rejoicing...

The reality? Well, that's a whole nother matter... And it involved a
_lot_ of haranguing.

>> Curiously, the languages is what whithered. Though that situation was
>> dealt with in the last century which saw a revival of the local
>> languages.
>
>I guess that Kerno was officially held to be a dialect of Brithenig
>until a few decades ago, while in fact it is a language of its own.  Are
>Brithenig and Kerno mutually intelligible or not?
Ha! While it would undoubtedly be possible to construct sentences
that are pretty close in both; they are not mutually intelligible.
It was indeed considered to be a "rustic and much debased patois"
by the most respected linguists in the land (many of whom were, in
point of fact, from Dunein). After the Debacle of 1805, and Civil
War barely averted, certain Elements came to power, and with the
renewal of the Old Parliament, eventually led to a sort of cultural
reawakening. By the 1890s, the language situation was sorted out
tollerably well, though the political asperations of some had fizzled
out in decades previous. It was a matter of some pride, on that fine
summer day in 1923 when la Bivlia was finally published; with brass
bands playing and people queuing up in the markets to buy one in their
own language. And there was much rejoicing...

>>       Similarly, the March still has minor kings floating about,
>> though they were never an independant country. In this case, there are
>> two kingdoms - rather like how Dunein is divided into four kingdoms.
>> In the modern period, this is really a subprovincial division more
>> than a division between kingdoms.
>
>I understand this.  Did anyone ever fix the names of the two kingdoms?
No.

>What is the capital of the March, and what are the capitals of the two
>kingdoms?
Dunno.

>The northern one would have a dominant Elvish element and could have a
>Nur-ellen name: _Lalorndor_ "elm country", capital Tafrobl.  The
>Brithenig name may be an adaption or a translation.
>
>Lalorndor would not be a kingdom, but a traditional democratic republic
>with a parliament (I haven't fixed a Nur-ellen term for this yet) and an
>elected governor (_kondir_).  There is of course lots of old ritual
>connected with the proceeding of the political institutions.  While the
>working sessions of the parliament are not much different from those of
>any other modern parliament, sessions of ceremonial character (such as
>the opening session) are held on Mertlad according to ancient
>procedures.
>
>This is something the Elves negotiated out of the kings of Kemr quite a
>long time ago; Ill Terruin accepted mainly because he wanted to avoid
>losing Lalorndor to Saeson.  Does this make sense?
Dunno. I can't answer that one!

>> >It seems to represent some kind of political subdivision of the
>> >province, but there are no labels on the map.  The northern part could
>> >indeed be "Pays d'Ylyl" or something like that, though in that case the
>> >line should rather slope towards the south-east.
>>
>> Along that river there? I think such a thing could be arranged.
>
>No, I was rather thinking of a line running from a bit north of the
>western end of the line that's on the map to the southeastern corner of
>the province.  This is approximately the boundary of the area where
>Nur-ellen is the dominant language.
Ah, I see.

>
>> > [The name "Tafrobl"]
>>
>> They're not so smug that they'd translate a for'n name. For'n names
>> only get mangled; though Tawrovels /'ta:wrovejs/ seems to survive
>> rather well. "Forrest Town" would be il dunes y bhosckes /ij 'dun@s
>> i 'vo:sk/. Curiously enough, Tawrovels would be interpreted as
>> Handsome Bull in Kerno.
>
>"Handsome Bull"... ROTFL!  This is a good one!
>
>>       Not a bad name either way; and would be quite
>> evocative of the Old Stories (y Dho Ayus, for example), since cattle
>> and bulls especially figure somewhat prominently.
>
>I am a complete loss on that matter.  Please enlighten me.
Well, you get Certain Animals in the old stories: mostly white stags
(hunted by great Kings who tryst with strange maidens in the deep fogs
the Land of the Young), white bulls (who are coveted by powerful
Queens that do everything in their power to obtain the bull), wild
boars (who plow up 500 hides of land in a day and slay thrice 500
valiant warriors arrayed for battle) and the like.

The Dho Ayus is a class of stories pertaining to cattle raids and
heros' deeds of derring-do. The name Tawrovels would be evocative of
il Tarvobels - the Handsome Bull - which is the pride and joy of his
owner, for his white hide (and for services rendered to the
neighbours' cows). The Handsome Bull is invariably desired by a rival
king (or queen as the case may be)  who sends his heros against the
local lads to nick the Bull and bring it home. They never win. Unless
it's _US_ that's telling the story, anyway! Then the lads come home
triumphant with loot and cattle.

Hope that clears it up a bit?

Padraic.

>Jörg.