Re: Nur-ellen in the world of Brithenig

On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>> >Another question: what sizes are the cities of Kemr?  I guess that
>> >Castreleon is around 500,000 or 600,000, which seems right to me for the
>> >capital of a country numbering 4 million.  Aberddui would then count
>> >some 300,000, with Esca and Tafrobl being around 200,000.
>>
>> Sounds about right to me.
>
>John apparenly says that Castreleon is bigger (about 900,000), so
>Aberddui and Esca may be slightly bigger (400,000 and 300,000,
>respectively) as well.  But keep Tafrobl at 200,000 or only slightly
>more, it seems just right to me.  My idea is that Tafrobl is the fourth
>largest city of Kemr.
I wouldn't put Esca quite that high. No more than 275.000 or so.
It's not a big place at all.

>> >> It will need updating, as there are now llo Ylyl to deal with. Let me
>> >> know where they are with respect to *here* and *there*'s geography!
>> >
>> >The city of Tafrobl is in northern Illemarcca (to use the form on your
>> >map) on the river Trent, just northeast of the second "l" of
>> >"Illemarcca" on your map.
>>
>> That's Bilemarcca (the "B" didn't come out too well apparently), or
>> Border March.
>
>What is the meaning of the dashed line running across the middle of
>Bilemarcca?
Like Dunein, the March still retains some of its native nobility. In
the case of Dunein, it was at one time an independant country. When
Kernow came to unite with Cambria; much of the political structure was
retained, but transmuted into a provincial structure. A number of
customs and a large portion of the legal system were retained as well.
Curiously, the languages is what whithered. Though that situation was
dealt with in the last century which saw a revival of the local
languages.  Similarly, the March still has minor kings floating about,
though they were never an independant country. In this case, there are
two kingdoms - rather like how Dunein is divided into four kingdoms.
In the modern period, this is really a subprovincial division more
than a division between kingdoms.

>It seems to represent some kind of political subdivision of the
>province, but there are no labels on the map.  The northern part could
>indeed be "Pays d'Ylyl" or something like that, though in that case the
>line should rather slope towards the south-east.
Along that river there? I think such a thing could be arranged.
Andrew?

>> Which bank is Tafrobl on, and is that the oldest form of the town's
>> name?
>
>It is on the eastern bank of the river, I think, where Great Haywood is
>*here*.  Of course, the modern city extends to the west bank as well, as
>modern cities usually do unless there is a political boundary in the
>middle of the river preventing it from sprawling to the other side.
>
>The oldest form of the name is indeed what it is called today:
>[tavrob@l].
>The name has not changed much during the last 2000 years at least.
>Note that Tolkien gives the Sindarin form (which is basically the form
>used just prior to the Celtic invasion) as _Tavrobel_.  I'd say the
>Kerno name is just the same as the name used in Nur-ellen and Brithenig,
>adapted to the Kerno orthography.  (Unless the Kernow are so smug to
>translate it - it means "forest town" - just to show that they have a
>better understanding of Nur-ellen than the Brithenig-speakers ;-))
They're not so smug that they'd translate a for'n name. For'n names
only get mangled; though Tawrovels /'ta:wrovejs/ seems to survive
rather well. "Forrest Town" would be il dunes y bhosckes /ij 'dun@s
i 'vo:sk/. Curiously enough, Tawrovels would be interpreted as
Handsome Bull in Kerno. Not a bad name either way; and would be quite
evocative of the Old Stories (y Dho Ayus, for example), since cattle
and bulls especially figure somewhat prominently.

Padraic.

>Jörg.