----- Original Message -----
From: "Christophe Grandsire" <christophe.grandsire@...>
> En réponse à Sally Caves <scaves@...>:
> >
> > Aren't the "r"s in both French and German considered voiced velar
> > fricatives
> > of sorts?
>
> No, they are voiced *uvular* fricatives, further back in the mouth.
Sigh. That has always my problem... I can't seem to bring velar fricatives
forward in my mouth. They always slip back, like they want to be swallowed,
and the uvula always gets involved. I can note the difference only if I
start out with unvoiced velar fricative.
> They differ slightly; I've heard the French "r" described as
> > a
> > "uvular scrape."
>
> I'd personally associate an "uvular scrape" to the uvular trill, which
used to
> be the normal pronunciation of the French "r" and still survives in
Parisian
> dialect.
I think of a uvular trill as one in which the uvula vibrates magnificently
against the back of the tongue, such as in the gorgeous German Rath Spieler!
Or, impossible for me to maneuver, "Richtig!" "Correct!" I can only do it
when my mouth is slack, so with low or back vowels. This is quite a
different sound to me than the "r" used in the French I've heard and spoken,
which really is more like a scrape than a trill. So it was uvularly trilled
in the eighteenth century? And it still survives in the Parisian dialect?
If only you were standing here in front of me and could demonstrate it! But
I lived in Geneva, so what do I know about Parisian dialect? :)
>
> So German also has instances of the voiced uvular trill? I didn't know
that,
> although it sounds logical to me, since in both languages the "r" evolved
from
> a former alveolar trill, and the best way from an alveolar trill to an
uvular
> fricative is through a stage of uvular trill.
Yes. As John Cowan has confirmed!
> > "r"s in
> > French and German. The voiced velar fricative occurs in the Teonaht
> > alphabet, but it is only very rarely used, along with a number of
> > sounds
> > that have graphic representation in the Renuon (possibly there for the
> > spelling of foreign words) (or because Sally Caves got too slap-happy in
> > her
> > salad days).
> >
>
> LOL. Of course, as you can imagine, Maggel has the voiced velar fricative
:))
> (as well as the voiceless velar fricative, the voiced velar approximant -
neat
> sound by the way :))) - and a series of rhotics: alveolar trill, alveolar
flap,
> alveolar approximant, uvular fricative - and probably the uvular trill,
but not
> phonemically as the others -).
So another aspect of Maggelity is having way too many sounds for a natural
language? :) What's the voiced velar approximant?
Sally Caves
scaves@frontiernet.net
Eskkoat ol ai sendran, rohsan nuehra celyil takrem bomai nakuo.
"My shadow follows me, putting strange, new roses into the world."