Re: savoir-connaître (was: Re: can-may)

On Monday 27 December 2004 12:25, Rene Uittenbogaard wrote:

 > # 1 wrote:
 > > Maybe you don't know it clearly and that you only use
 > > it instinctively too because I don't know how to
 > > explain clearly the difference between "savoir" and
 > > "connaître" wich both means "to know" in english..
 >
 > I thought "connaître" is used for people and specific
 > things:
 >
 > Je connais cet homme - I know that man
 > Je connais ce livre - I know that book
 >
 > "savoir" is used for abilities and facts:
 >
 > Il sait lire - He knows how to read / He can read
 > Il sait qui est venu - He knows who has come.
 >
 > correct?

That's also what I've learnt at school. Back to the can/may
problem but regarding French this time, for us Germans, the
problem is the difference between "pouvoir" and "savoir".
Both is in certain environments translated with
"können" (can, may) -- I fear to overgeneralize here, sorry
if so!:

  a. Ich kann jetzt lesen. -> I know how to read now
  b. Ich kann jetzt lesen. -> I've the permission read now.
     [IC kAn jEts)t "lesn=]

In French, you've got

  a. Je sais lire maintenant.
  b. Je peux lire maintenant.

Tricky. But I found this diffrence sensible and thus
recently decided to include it in Ayeri. <rant>I don't like
that there is no distinction between "dürfen" (to be allowed
to) and "müssen" (to have to) in French as well, both is
"devoir". Or "lieben" (to love) and "mögen" (to
like), ...</rant>

BTW, in German "dürfen" (to be allowed to) still exists and
is used (though differently than English "may").
Nevertheless, in informal environments more often "can" is
used -- except you ask your parents explicitly for
permission for example. So at least in my environment, it's
similar to what Tristan said about Australian English.

============================================================

On Monday 27 December 2004 19:24, Mark J. Reed wrote:

 > Separating "to know" into saber/savoir/weissen

*wissen (it's irregular!)

 > Incidentally, in case it wasn't clear from Sally's post,
 > there's a connection between your examples, since English
 > "can" is derived from an older word for "know", which was
 > used in the sense "know how to [do something]", and is
 > cognate with German "kann". I assume they're cognate with
 > "kennen" as well?  Is "kann" considered a form of
 > "kennen", even?  My German knowledge is quite rusty. :)

No, "kennen" and "können" are two different stems _today_,
at least *I* perceive them as such.
This is what the DUDEN Herkuftswörterbuch writes about
these words (I bet they're related!):

| KENNEN: Mhd. _kennen_ "erkennen; kennen", ahd. (in
| Zusammensetzungen) _chennan_, got. _kannjan_ "bekannt
| machen, kundtun", aengl. _cennan_ "kundtun, bestimmen,
| erklären", schwed. _känna_ "kundtun, unterweisen;
| erkennen; kennen" gehen auf germ. _*kannjan_ zurück, das
| eine Kausativbildung zu dem unter ->KÖNNEN dargestellten
| gemeingermanischen Präteritopräsens ist und eigentlich
| "wissen lassen, verstehen machen" bedeutet.

| KÖNNEN: Das gemeingerm. Verb (Präteritopräsens) bedeutete
| im Gegensatz zu hetue früher "geistig vermögen, wissen,
| verstehen". Diese alte Bedeutung spiegeln auch wider die
| Kausativbildung ->KENNEN (eigentlich "wissen lassen,
| verstehen machen") [...]. Mhd. _künnen_, _kunnen_, ahd.
| _kunnan_, got. _kunnan_, aengl. _cunnan_ (engl. _can_);
| schwed. _kunna_ gehen mit verwandten Wörtern auf in
| anderen idg. Sprachen auf die Wurzel _*g^en@-_ "erkennen,
| kennen, wissen" zurück, vgl. z.B. lat. _(g)noscere_
| "erkennen" (siehe die Fremdwörtergruppe um ->NOBEL) und
| griech. _gi-gnóskein_ "erkennen" (siehe die
| Fremdwörtergruppe um _Diagnose_). [...]

Although your German is a bit rusty, Markos, I hope you'll
understand. I'd have to look up many things in the
dictionary and am too lazy at the moment, it's Winter
holidays after all! :-P

Cheers,
Carsten

--

Eri silveváng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
  -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince

http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri

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