Re: question on sampa representation

Roger Mills wrote:

> David Barrow wrote:
> DB> > > are you familiar with British "o" in "hot" and "long"?
> RM> > Not completely; my impression is that RP has [O] (backward c) in
> "hot"; I'm
> > > unsure about RP "long" but suspect it's a different vowel, probably [Q].
> > They're the same [Q]
>  OK............
> > >
> >
> > I'm looking for a symbol I can use for the sound "o" in GA "long"  rather
> than
> > the in GA "hot" and which someone familiar with SAMPA could understand
> without
> > any need for clarification.
>
> For absolute, no-need-to-explain accuracy, Q.
>
> RM> > > GA "hot" phonetic [hat], phonemic /hat/
> > > > GA "long" phonetic [lQN] or maybe [lON], phonemic (US usage) /lON/
>
> Oops, I omitted the colon in [lQ:N] ~[lO:N], so your following comment is
> probably true with repect to the Longman's dictionary:
> DB> I thought [Q] (no colon) represented the British short "o"  (this sound
> doesn't
> > exist in AE, or so I've read somewhere)
> >
> > LCDE has reverse script a [Q] for RP "hot" "long" "dog" "cot"
> OK.
> >
> > 1) It has script a (with a colon) for RP/GA "father"  "car"  RP "bath"
> "last" GA
> > "hot" "nod" (Is your use of [a] rather than [A] a good explanation as to
> why the
> > vowels in RP "bath" and GA "hot" don't sound the same to me?
>
> Yes. [a] (same in IPA) to my ear is the same vowel as French/Spanish/Italian
> "a".  But some US speakers on this list maintain they have [A] for my [a].
> >
> > 2) It has reverse script a (with a colon) ([Q:]?) for GA "dog" "long"
> "law"
> > "lawn" "caught" "broad". Do you pronounce the vowel in these the same?
> Allowing for etc....
>
> Yes. [Q(:)]
> >
> DB> 3) It has reverse c (with a colon) [O] for RP "law" "lawn" "caught"
> "broad" and
> > RP/GA "court" "horse" but not for GA "dog" "long" "law" "lawn" "caught"
> "broad"
>
> That sounds right.......
>
> DB> the site you mention above unlike the LDCE has this symbol for both RP
> and GA
> > bawed
> RM That's odd....Anyway, _bawed_??????? That's a word?  I do think RP would
> distinguish "pod" from "pawed", but otherwise I'm at a loss here.  Maybe
> someone slipped up....
> (Memory wakes up:  IIRC the word used was "bod", slangy contraction of
> "body")
>
my mistake, it's bawd not bawed but it does use the same symbol for both RP and
GA compare:

http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/vowels/chapter3/bbcenglish.html

with

http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/vowels/chapter3/amengvowels.html

>
> DB> In non rhotic RP (and my (equally non rhotic) pronunciation) caught and
> court
> > are homophones
>
> In non-rhotic AE, I think they'd be different but am not sure.
> >
> DB> If the answer to 2) is no, do you pronounce the vowel in caught and
> court the same?
>
> No I don't.  caught has [Q], court (I"m rhotic), because of the /r/, has a
> peculiar vowel somewhere between [o] and [O], definitely not [Q].  As you
> probably know, AE vowel distinctions neutralize before /r/, so what you call
> them _phonemically_ is a toss-up.
Dictionaries mark the vowel of "or" words the same for RP/GA the difference is
non-rhotic/rhotic

>
> >
> Yikes! We really do need a website where everyone could post sound samples
> of their English vowels for everyone else to dissect.......
Are you familiar with these two sites:

http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/

http://www.ukans.edu/%7Eidea/index2.html

the first has IPA transcriptions

David Barrow

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