Re: question on sampa representation

David Barrow wrote:
DB> > > are you familiar with British "o" in "hot" and "long"?
RM> > Not completely; my impression is that RP has [O] (backward c) in
"hot"; I'm
> > unsure about RP "long" but suspect it's a different vowel, probably [Q].
> They're the same [Q]
 OK............
> >
>
> I'm looking for a symbol I can use for the sound "o" in GA "long"  rather
than
> the in GA "hot" and which someone familiar with SAMPA could understand
without
> any need for clarification.
For absolute, no-need-to-explain accuracy, Q.

RM> > > GA "hot" phonetic [hat], phonemic /hat/
> > > GA "long" phonetic [lQN] or maybe [lON], phonemic (US usage) /lON/
Oops, I omitted the colon in [lQ:N] ~[lO:N], so your following comment is
probably true with repect to the Longman's dictionary:
DB> I thought [Q] (no colon) represented the British short "o"  (this sound
doesn't
> exist in AE, or so I've read somewhere)
>
> LCDE has reverse script a [Q] for RP "hot" "long" "dog" "cot"
OK.
>
> 1) It has script a (with a colon) for RP/GA "father"  "car"  RP "bath"
"last" GA
> "hot" "nod" (Is your use of [a] rather than [A] a good explanation as to
why the
> vowels in RP "bath" and GA "hot" don't sound the same to me?
Yes. [a] (same in IPA) to my ear is the same vowel as French/Spanish/Italian
"a".  But some US speakers on this list maintain they have [A] for my [a].
>
> 2) It has reverse script a (with a colon) ([Q:]?) for GA "dog" "long"
"law"
> "lawn" "caught" "broad". Do you pronounce the vowel in these the same?
Allowing for etc....

Yes. [Q(:)]
>
DB> 3) It has reverse c (with a colon) [O] for RP "law" "lawn" "caught"
"broad" and
> RP/GA "court" "horse" but not for GA "dog" "long" "law" "lawn" "caught"
"broad"

That sounds right.......

DB> the site you mention above unlike the LDCE has this symbol for both RP
and GA
> bawed
RM That's odd....Anyway, _bawed_??????? That's a word?  I do think RP would
distinguish "pod" from "pawed", but otherwise I'm at a loss here.  Maybe
someone slipped up....
(Memory wakes up:  IIRC the word used was "bod", slangy contraction of
"body")

DB> In non rhotic RP (and my (equally non rhotic) pronunciation) caught and
court
> are homophones
In non-rhotic AE, I think they'd be different but am not sure.
>
DB> If the answer to 2) is no, do you pronounce the vowel in caught and
court the same?

No I don't.  caught has [Q], court (I"m rhotic), because of the /r/, has a
peculiar vowel somewhere between [o] and [O], definitely not [Q].  As you
probably know, AE vowel distinctions neutralize before /r/, so what you call
them _phonemically_ is a toss-up.
>
Yikes! We really do need a website where everyone could post sound samples
of their English vowels for everyone else to dissect.......

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