Re: Answer to Sally's Question: Elves, Neste
|From:||Sally Caves <scaves@...>|
|Date:||Wednesday, April 2, 2003, 1:50|
Be sure to send me the remaining 25% off-line, John, because I will be going
no-mail this evening. This is interesting!
Eskkoat ol ai sendran, rohsan nuehra celyil takrem bomai nakuo.
"My shadow follows me, putting strange, new roses into the world."
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cowan" <jcowan@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: Answer to Sally's Question: Elves, Neste
> Sally Caves scripsit:
> > What was the outcome of the debate? My question would be "Aren't youElves
> > ever curious about mortality? Look at me. I'm dying as I speak to you.
> > Where are your Elvish anthropologists?"
> Here's part 2 of the Athrabeth precis:
> If so, says Finrod, then it can only mean that Men's souls have the
> power to carry their bodies with them beyond the limits of the world,
> which would mean that unfallen Men were powerful indeed, and that the
> wrong done to them was the most terrible of calamities. He speculates
> that there is somewhere another world in which everything has eternal
> existence. Andreth says that if so, Men know nothing of it and guess
> little. Finrod then speculates further that that may have been the
> reason for the creation of Men: to be the heirs of the world and in the
> end to restore the unfallen state, or rather to create a third state
> transcending the fallen/unfallen distinction.
> Finrod guesses (correctly) that the Valar do not know what the end of
> the world will be like. Finrod, thinking about the eventual fate of
> the Elves, suddenly has a vision of them as a part of the renewed world
> after the end -- the historians of the old world for Men, who will belong
> to that world as they do not to this fallen world. The Elves like the
> other things of the world will become eternal and unchanging. Therefore,
> their longevity, though it seems hard now, will then be a blessing.
> Andreth says that Men have no reason to hope for such a thing; they had
> hoped to escape Morgoth, but that hope too is vain. Finrod explains
> [ObConlang] that there are two Sindarin words for "hope": "amdir",
> meaning something good that has a foundation in the known, though it is
> uncertain; and "estel" [Aragorn's usename as a child, millennia later]
> meaning the hope that does not come from experience but from the very
> nature of the Elves as the children of God, whom God will not abandon.
> Finrod asks if Men have estel. Andreth says that most have none, being
> under the domination of the Dark Lord, and even those who have escaped
> from him, have at most amdir that there is some means of escape from evil.
> Andreth says, however, that those "of the Old Hope", who are few but
> increasing now that Men see that Morgoth can be defied, believe that God
> will enter the world, heal the wound, and undo the marring of the world.
> Andreth, however, does not herself believe this, because there is no
> evidence of God in the world, and because she does not see how the
> Creator can enter his creation, any more than a singer his song or a
> painter his picture. [Cf. Tolkien's "Leaf by Niggle".] Finrod says
> that God is already both inside and outside the world; Andreth replies
> that this "being in the world" is meant in a different sense, immanent
> not transcendent.
> Finrod says that these things are beyond the knowledge of the Elves,
> but if God wished to enter his creation, Finrod is sure that he would
> find some way to do so, and surely in no other way could the world be
> healed as Andreth describes.
> This is getting tough. The remaining 25% tomorrow.
> Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan
> Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker email@example.com
> saying "No information items inside".http://www.reutershealth.com