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Re: Answer to Sally's Question: Elves, Neste

From:Sally Caves <scaves@...>
Date:Wednesday, April 2, 2003, 1:50
Be sure to send me the remaining 25% off-line, John, because I will be going
no-mail this evening.  This is interesting!

Sally Caves
Eskkoat ol ai sendran, rohsan nuehra celyil takrem bomai nakuo.
"My shadow follows me, putting strange, new roses into the world."

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cowan" <jcowan@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: Answer to Sally's Question: Elves, Neste

> Sally Caves scripsit: > > > What was the outcome of the debate? My question would be "Aren't you
> > ever curious about mortality? Look at me. I'm dying as I speak to you. > > Where are your Elvish anthropologists?" > > Here's part 2 of the Athrabeth precis: > > If so, says Finrod, then it can only mean that Men's souls have the > power to carry their bodies with them beyond the limits of the world, > which would mean that unfallen Men were powerful indeed, and that the > wrong done to them was the most terrible of calamities. He speculates > that there is somewhere another world in which everything has eternal > existence. Andreth says that if so, Men know nothing of it and guess > little. Finrod then speculates further that that may have been the > reason for the creation of Men: to be the heirs of the world and in the > end to restore the unfallen state, or rather to create a third state > transcending the fallen/unfallen distinction. > > Finrod guesses (correctly) that the Valar do not know what the end of > the world will be like. Finrod, thinking about the eventual fate of > the Elves, suddenly has a vision of them as a part of the renewed world > after the end -- the historians of the old world for Men, who will belong > to that world as they do not to this fallen world. The Elves like the > other things of the world will become eternal and unchanging. Therefore, > their longevity, though it seems hard now, will then be a blessing. > > Andreth says that Men have no reason to hope for such a thing; they had > hoped to escape Morgoth, but that hope too is vain. Finrod explains > [ObConlang] that there are two Sindarin words for "hope": "amdir", > meaning something good that has a foundation in the known, though it is > uncertain; and "estel" [Aragorn's usename as a child, millennia later] > meaning the hope that does not come from experience but from the very > nature of the Elves as the children of God, whom God will not abandon. > Finrod asks if Men have estel. Andreth says that most have none, being > under the domination of the Dark Lord, and even those who have escaped > from him, have at most amdir that there is some means of escape from evil. > > Andreth says, however, that those "of the Old Hope", who are few but > increasing now that Men see that Morgoth can be defied, believe that God > will enter the world, heal the wound, and undo the marring of the world. > Andreth, however, does not herself believe this, because there is no > evidence of God in the world, and because she does not see how the > Creator can enter his creation, any more than a singer his song or a > painter his picture. [Cf. Tolkien's "Leaf by Niggle".] Finrod says > that God is already both inside and outside the world; Andreth replies > that this "being in the world" is meant in a different sense, immanent > not transcendent. > > Finrod says that these things are beyond the knowledge of the Elves, > but if God wished to enter his creation, Finrod is sure that he would > find some way to do so, and surely in no other way could the world be > healed as Andreth describes. > > This is getting tough. The remaining 25% tomorrow. > -- > Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan > Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker > saying "No information items inside".
> --Eve Maler >