Re: No Vowels?

MorphemeAddict@WMCONNECT.COM wrote:
> At http://www.rickharrison.com/language/plan_b.html
>
> Jeff Prothero offers this idea:
>
> We adopt the alphabet BCDF GHJK LMNP STVZ.
Yes, but this is surely confusing the meanings of "vowel". It is true
that "Plan B" is written only with symbols conventionally called
'consonants', but the language most definitely has both phonetic and
phonemic vowels, as I have shown on
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Loglang/PhonAndOrthog.html

The language *simply is not spelled phonemically*
[snip]
> By providing both a vowel and a consonant
> pronunciation for each letter, and using
> them alternately, we can pronounce arbitrary
> strings of letters without difficulty.
As Jacques Guy observes in his satirical response "Plan C":
{quote}
And I, poor sod, who thought a strict CV(V) language would do it!"
{/quote}
See:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010616113550/http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/7676/l-humor.html

Indeed, as I showed in a mail to this list, the sixteen bit patterns of
"Plan B" could well have been mapped to simple CV syllables. This would
mean that each bit pattern had only *one* pronunciation, and the written
representation of it would also have one pronunciation, see:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509c&L=conlang&P=11108

Indeed, Jörg Riemeier has outlined an engelang using just this proposed
syllabary, see:
http://wiki.frath.net/X-1

I have since myself suggested a modification of this as you will see if
you read my webpage quoted above.

What Jeff Prothero did in "Plan B" was to have a system whereby each
pattern of four bits from 0 to F has two pronunciations - one
consonantal, the other vocalic - according to whether the bit pattern
occurs in an odd or even position. The fact that he chose to map each
bit pattern to a letter of the Roman alphabet that is normally used to
represent consonants has no relevance as to whether "Plan B" has either
phonetic and/or phonemic vowels.
-----------------------------------

MorphemeAddict@WMCONNECT.COM wrote:
 > In a message dated 6/30/2007 4:16:46 AM Central Daylight Time,
 > joefatula@INBOX.COM writes:
 >
 >>
 >>  phonemes > phonetic realization
 >>  /tdzn/ > [tadzana]
 >>  /ktds/ > [katdasa]
 >>  /hrt/ > [harta]
 >>
 >>The vowel phones are entirely predictable from knowing just the
 >>consonant phonemes, which leads me to think that the vowels themselves
 >>are not phonetic.
 >
 > Is [a] the only vowel used?

It certainly looks like it from the examples given, doesn't it?

If [a] is the only vowel and it is entirely predictable the, yes, it
does not have _phonemic_ status.

But, as the square brackets used correctly by both Joseph Fatula & Stevo
show, [a] does (indeed must) have _phonetic_ status, otherwise you
wouldn't hear it       :)

--------------------------

And Rosta wrote:
 > Joseph Fatula, On 30/06/2007 10:06:
[snip]
 >> The vowel phones are entirely predictable from knowing just the
 >> consonant phonemes, which leads me to think that the vowels themselves
 >> are not phonetic.  Am I analyzing this correctly?  It just seems too
 >> bizarre, and yet I can't think of a good reason to claim that vowels
 >> are phonetic in this language.
 >
 >
 > It's not that bizarre, and indeed such an analysis has been offered for
 > some Caucasian lgs.

Surely not! I have come across analyses of Caucasian languages which
postulate no _phonemic_ vowels; indeed, I have met analyses of PIE that
postulate no phonemic vowels.

But no phonetic vowels? Is such a beast possible?

It would seem to me that Joseph is wondering if his language has no
phonemic vowels, surely.

 > As for whether the analysis is correct, you haven't given enough data.

Indeed not - but the examples given do suggest it is a possibility. But:
1. Is [a] the only vowel phone (i.e. phonetic vowel) in the language?
2. If the vowel phones are entirely predictable from knowing the
consonant phonemes, what are the rules?

--
Ray
==================================
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http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]