R: Re: R: Re: Latin loans in Welsh

Padraic wrote:

> >> More grist please!
> >>
> >> I thought I'd put in the Kerno list while I'm at it. Lots of nice
> >> irregulars here - usually of the split declension sort which is
> >> very common in Kerno. I-mutation plural nominatives are heard
> >> less frequently than the full (correct) form. [coll. = collective
> >> noun]
> >>
> >> ascendere       ascender
> >> barba           la barba                y varbàn        (also la barbá)
> >
> >Does this barba mean 'beard' or 'uncle' (as in many Gallo-Italic
varieties)?
> >The plural -àn suggests the latter hypothesis. -ani is a quite common
plural
> >suffix in some characteristic alpine dialects; in some valleys it is
always
> >used with surnames.
>
> Means beard. Though the meaning "uncle" is quite interesting! How
> did (presumably) Latin barba come to mean uncle? Did all uncles
> have beards or something?
My Italian vocabulary lists it so:

_barba_, male noun, invariable, archaic and septentrionalism (does this word
exist in English?): 1. uncle 2. in the valdese (and this? the vocabulary is
not at hand, at the moment!) communities of Piedmont, priest; every member
of this religious community. [etym.: _barba_ meant 'adult male member of the
family different from the father']

> Especially in the last couple centuries, Kerno has exhibited the
> curious phenomenon of nominal declension shifting based on the
> final consonant of the root; after which, other similar nouns
> sometimes follow by analogy even if that consonant isn't part of
> the word in question.
>
> For example, the K word "la Couba" means Cuba, the country. One
> majour export of the place is "y cigarillas coubanas" (< Span.);
> which got shortened in K to "y choubannes", literally 'Cubans'.
> The -n element gets reanalysed as the stem, and this word migrates
> from the -a declension to the -n declension. At times other words
> get reanalysed as well, even if there was never an -n in there
> (like barba), and it also ends up as an -n stem. As you can see,
> la barba is halfway in the -a declension (the singular) and halfway
> in the -n declension (the plural).
The -n(i/e) plural is a typical trait of some alpine dialects, and as I said
above, it's generally used with surnames. The AIS (Atlante Italo Svizzero,
an important resource about many dialects) mentions il Capra - i Caprani,
AFAIR.

I'm not sure, but I think that the common plur. form of Lombard _tusa_
(trad. spell.: tosa; /'tuza/), which is tusann (t.s.: tosann; /tu'zan/) has
the same source (/to'zane/ > (-e gets always lost word-finally) > /tu'zan/).
Porta, one of the greatest Milanese poets ever, has also sorellann
/sure'lan/ as the plur. of sorella /su'rEla/ 'sister'.

> Kerno seems to be in the middle of a great process of shift away
> from the old "Latin" declension system and into something new. As
> the language stood in the mid to late 19th century (the Revival),
> the process was well underway; currently its travelling at full
> steam and the best efforts of the various Language Bureaux can't
> seem to stop it.
>
> The process is this: In the oldest levels of the language, there were
> the same five vowel declensions Latin had plus three special consonant
> declensions (-n, -t, -r/-s) which were largely declined like -i stems.
> By the 15th century or so, the -o and -u stems are largely coalescent;
> by the late 19th, the current state of affairs is found where there's
> essentially one declension. What's happening is that -r, -n, -s, and
> -t are becomming reanalysed into (official) plural terminations.
Were the five decl. still alive in the 15th cent.? Interesting...

> It should be noted that what facilitates this is the loss of the case
> endings in casual speech:
>
> WRITTEN                         SPOKEN
>
> il murs         y vurores       /Il murs        i vUror/
> li muri         lis murib
> le mmurre       y vurores       /le~ mur        i vUrors/
It is nom/dat/acc, isn't it?

> [You don't get the dative in daily speech. I'm also sure that [o]
> isn't the right IPA for the second vowel in the plural, but you
> get the idea.]
>
> Probably what's going to happen is _all_ nouns will end up in one of
> these four new declensions, with reworking of the case endings.
This is a great idea. And does the present stage of the written language
reflect this?

> Not quite the answer you were looking for, but it does explain why and
> how la barba gets its -n!
That was very interesting, though.

> Ah... by the way: in Kerno, uncle is "patrecko (al laddes la mmatre)"
> for maternal uncle; and "brater peitron" for paternal uncle.
>
Luca

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