Re: Middle Welsh (was Cein)

----- Original Message -----
From: <kam@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Middle Welsh (was Cein)


> >>> Anyway. The A is marked with the preposition _o_ which has
> >>> the meaning 'from, of'. Example:
> >>
> >>> kymryt o    Arthur y   daryan eureit
> >>> take   from Arthur the shield golden
>
> > "Of."  O = poss. "of," not "from."  "Taking of Arthur the golden
shield."
> > I.e., Arthur's taking [of] the golden shield;
>
> I'd say "taking by A. of the shield"
>
> I have to disagree with you here. On another thread, Ray has said that
> in Romance langs phrases with "de" or some other preposition took the
> place of the old genitive case. This didn't happen in Celtic langs, the
> noun ceased to marked for genitive, but the _genitive construction_ (i.e.
> marking by word order) continues. e.g.
I can't remember, at this point, kam@CARROT, who said what.  But
I'm not denying that this is a genitive construction.  "Taking *by* Arthur
only clarifies its meaning a little bit in modern English.  The genitive
clearly indicates some kind of agency used this way.  It's definitely
"taking of Arthur," no question about it.

Interesting stuff snipped.

> > It's a very gerundial prose style which has earned it all sorts
> > of mixed praise for its "quaintness" and "stasis,"
> I find it a very vivid idiom for describing a sequence of actions that
> flow one into the next -- not in the least quaint, and certainly the very
> opposite of static.
Oh I agree with you.  I was quoting loosely from old critics of Welsh.
And my students on first encountering it.

Where have you done your study of Celtic languages?

> > "The gods have retractible claws."
> Very, very true, my household gods send their greetings to you, "mew"!
Firrimby!

Sally Caves
scaves@frontiernet.net

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