Re: CHAT: XS vs. Kirshenbaum vs. Who-knows-what

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004, Morgan Palaeo Associates wrote:

> I've mentioned in reply to Roger that [x] is no less logical a choice
> than [K]. X-sampa also uses [F] and [J] for nasals. I find that far
> less logical than most of your reservations about my scheme.
Well, yes, it is a less logical choice. x is a character of the IPA, K
isn't. So doesn't it make more sense to map IPA x to Ascii IPA x, even if
we do something utterly silly for IPA symbols for which there's no simple
translit? Not to mention the fact that x is a nice, simple, single
character, K is a more complicated double character (typing-wise, it's
shift+x), whereas CXS [x] (FITS [K]) is used a lot more frequently than
CXS [K] (FITS [x]). Sure, you might argue that X is no more logically
applied to an l-ezh ligature than a chi, but I think you can't find any
argument in favor of the change other than ... other than the fact that
you felt like it?

> > > [{]  begin double articulation or affricate (when necessary)
> >
> > Is that prefix, a postfix, a roundfix or an infix?
>
> The line you quote explicitely answers your question. Did you not
> notice my use of the word "begin"? "Begin" means "at the beginning",
> i.e. prefix, no? As in [{tS]
Oh, selective reading. Sorry bout that.

> > This is only true for English, TMK, and only because it doesn't have much
> > of a reason to change (whereas in AuE, at least one of [V] and [A:] have
> > to change to show the long/short, so you might as well change both). I
> > think you really should be distinguishing @\ from 8 from 3 from 3\. Or at
> > the very least rounded unrounded pairs.
>
> See my reply to Roger regarding proposed changes here.
Seems reasonable.

> > Roger Mills has alread shown the problem here. While ( and ) arranged like
> > that have certain mnemonic properties that X-Sampa { and } lack, there's
> > still going to be confusion and ( and ) are still grouping pairs. Grouping
> > pairs should only ever be used for groupings, because that's what people
...
> The problem with Xsampa [{] and [}] is that it's too easy to forget
> which is which. However, I've arranged [(] and [)] to be symmetrical
> on the vowel diagram and it is therefore easy to remember which is the
> front vowel and which is the back vowel - the former bends towards the
> front of the vowel diagram and the latter bends towards the back of
> the vowel diagram.
As I recognised ('... certain mnemonic properties ...'). The problem is
also aesthetic, of course, but that hardly counts for much... But how
would you the equivalent of [d&:n(t)s]? Would you just have to say
'[d&:ns] or [d&:nts]'? Even '[d&:ns], [-nts]' seems awfully long-winded.

> > I also really dislike your use of c and q as vowels. I think it's insanity
> > to try to use consonants as vowels and vowels as consonants, excepting
> > when talking about a syllabic consonant. It'll do more harm than good.
>
> Xsampa uses Q, V and M to represent vowels.
They're capitals (Did I complain about R, C and Q?). Capital letters used
distinctively have no predefined value. [Which might seem entirey
arbitrary, but Mark Okrand seems to agree with me.] Not only that, but V
represents an upsidedown v, M reperesents an upsidedown m, which isn't
arbitrary.

> Furthermore, the shape of the letter 'c' is like an 'e' with a line
> missing,
Yet does not represent an e.

> and the shape of the letter 'Q' is like an 'O' with a line
> added.
Yet does not represent an O, or even a backwards c, with a line added.

> As I've said to Roger, I am unshakeable in my opinion that the symbol
> for primary stress should involve more "strokes of the pen" than the
> symbol for secondary stress, because it's spoken with louder volume.
Okay, I'll let you have that.

--
Tristan

Mecht most toreck, ånd absolut mecht most toreck absolutelik. Gehalchte
menn vaore nichæ ever uevel menn, jetsvao svao indfluedels evaore
nemmfremm, ånd ne othoritet.
                             --- Jochn Emerich Edvard Dalberg, Herr Acton

/maiS mQ:tSaitS,  Qn afsluS maiS mQ:tSaitS afslulaitS.  jQ:f m&: wE Sa jev
ivu m&:, ZEsi fo efluduS evuJE:f, Qn (mwipet_ho/nu:t_horit_heS)/

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