Re: YEAPT: f/T (was Re: Other Vulgar Latins?)

On 22/02/06, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:

> On 2/22/06, Tristan Alexander McLeay <conlang@...> wrote:
> > I think it dies at the same time as /lj/ and /sj/ mostly do, so I'd
> > guess that conservative RP has it, but younger forms don't. Still,
> > having no idea what the word "thews" in the original list means, I
> > would read it as /Tju\:z/, which I have no problem saying, versus some
> > difficulty with word-initial [lj]
>
> *nods*
>
> [lu:d] is easier to say for me than (what feels the most "correct" for
> my 'lect) [lju:d], for example.
>
> > and an almost automatic change of
> > attempted [sj]->[S].
>
> Word-initial only, or everywhere? Do you say [aSu:m], for example, for
> <assume>? What about <suit> -- [su:t], [sju:t] or [Su:t]?
Word initially, */lj sj zj/ > /l s z/. In later syllables I think I'd
say phonemically they remain /lj sj zj/ but they're usually pronounced
[j S Z], with the provisos that /lj/ [j] is stigmatised so it only
happens in sloppier/more casual speech forms, and in some words I'd go
for [sj zj] in formal speech. There's some exceptions in the later
syllable rule so that's obviously not just it...

lude [lu\:d]
elude [@lu\:d]
aluminium [&lj@mIn_j@m] ~ [&j@mIn_j@m]
prelude [pr&lju\:d]
Australian [@stSr&ili.@n] ~ [@stSr&ij@n]
sue [su\:]
ensue [@nSu\:]
assume [@Su\:m]
consume [k@nSu\:m]
Zeus [zu\:s]
presume [pr@Zu\:m]

Otoh, */tj dj/ have definitely outright and always become /tS dZ/ and
though I can say [tju\:n], I can also say [tju\:z]; they sound exactly
as odd. */nj/ is essentially still /nj/ though its realisation is
somewhat retracted and the /j/ is coarticulated, so it's more like
[n_j] than [nj].

* is being used for earlier phonemes, not really reconstructions.

> > [fwiw, I grew up in a working-class suburb, but went to highschool in
> > a posh but state school so I never know how to say "castle"...])
>
> Why, with [A:], of course :) *g*
Only if it's the name of the movie... (There's a movie called "The
Castle", which almost everyone will say as /D@ ka:s@l/.)

--
Tristan.