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Re: YEAPT: f/T (was Re: Other Vulgar Latins?)

From:Tristan Alexander McLeay <conlang@...>
Date:Wednesday, February 22, 2006, 10:45
On 22/02/06, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:

> On 2/22/06, Tristan Alexander McLeay <conlang@...> wrote: > > I think it dies at the same time as /lj/ and /sj/ mostly do, so I'd > > guess that conservative RP has it, but younger forms don't. Still, > > having no idea what the word "thews" in the original list means, I > > would read it as /Tju\:z/, which I have no problem saying, versus some > > difficulty with word-initial [lj] > > *nods* > > [lu:d] is easier to say for me than (what feels the most "correct" for > my 'lect) [lju:d], for example. > > > and an almost automatic change of > > attempted [sj]->[S]. > > Word-initial only, or everywhere? Do you say [aSu:m], for example, for > <assume>? What about <suit> -- [su:t], [sju:t] or [Su:t]?
Word initially, */lj sj zj/ > /l s z/. In later syllables I think I'd say phonemically they remain /lj sj zj/ but they're usually pronounced [j S Z], with the provisos that /lj/ [j] is stigmatised so it only happens in sloppier/more casual speech forms, and in some words I'd go for [sj zj] in formal speech. There's some exceptions in the later syllable rule so that's obviously not just it... lude [lu\:d] elude [@lu\:d] aluminium [&lj@mIn_j@m] ~ [&j@mIn_j@m] prelude [pr&lju\:d] Australian [@stSr&ili.@n] ~ [@stSr&ij@n] sue [su\:] ensue [@nSu\:] assume [@Su\:m] consume [k@nSu\:m] Zeus [zu\:s] presume [pr@Zu\:m] Otoh, */tj dj/ have definitely outright and always become /tS dZ/ and though I can say [tju\:n], I can also say [tju\:z]; they sound exactly as odd. */nj/ is essentially still /nj/ though its realisation is somewhat retracted and the /j/ is coarticulated, so it's more like [n_j] than [nj]. * is being used for earlier phonemes, not really reconstructions.
> > [fwiw, I grew up in a working-class suburb, but went to highschool in > > a posh but state school so I never know how to say "castle"...]) > > Why, with [A:], of course :) *g*
Only if it's the name of the movie... (There's a movie called "The Castle", which almost everyone will say as /D@ ka:s@l/.) -- Tristan.