Re: Frankenlangs

On Sunday, September 5, 2004, at 12:50 , bob thornton wrote:

> Garth Wallace <gwalla@...> wrote:
>
> >bob thornton wrote:
> >>
> >> g (velar click, no IPA symbol)
>
> >I think there's no IPA symbol because it's anatomically impossible.
Yep - IPA doesn't provide symbols for anatomically impossibles sounds and,
  as you say, a velar click is not a possibility.

> >Clicks are velaric ingressives, formed by stopping airflow at the place
> >of articulation and the velum, pulling the tongue root back to create a
> >vacuum between them, and then releasing the stop. You can't have a
> >velaric ingressive velar stop ó there would be no "between".
Exactly. Clicks are produced by the velaric airstream, not the pulmonic
airstream that we are most familiar with.

There are three airstreams by which consonants can be produced. They are:
- pulmonic, where the airstream is initiated by the lungs,
- glottalic, where the airstream is initiated by the glottis,
- velaric, where the airstream is initiated by the back of the tongue
against the velum.

The other consideration is whether air is being drawn in by the initiator
or being expelled by it (that is, whether the sound is _ingessive_ or
_egressive_), thus:
                 EGRESSIVE              INGRESSIVE
PULMONIC     Consonants of most        (inhaled sigh)
				IE languages

GLOTTALIC       ejectives             implosives

VELARIC         (spitting)              clicks

(I guess a really freakish Frankenlang could include sighs & spitting)
		:)

In order for the airstream to be ingressed, the velaric closure is
released and as the air passes over the glottis the sound can be voiced.
This is shown in the spelling of the Nguni languages by the addition of |g|
; fot example in Xhosa:
                VOICELESS  VOICED
Dental click        c       cg
postalveolar click  q       qg
Lateral click       x       xg

> Then what the deuce kind of noise am I making?
Without hearing you, it is impossible to answer. But it *not* a velar
plosive; for a click to be produced the airstream has to be interrupted
_before_ is passes released velum-tongue closure. Clicks may be bilabial
(a kiss), dental, (post)alveolar, palatal or lateral; but they cannot be
velar since, as Garth rightly observes, there ain't no space between the
velum and the velum!

> It's on the same place of articulation as G... (XSAMPA g )
Right - I think the fact you say it's in the same place as [g] and not as
[k] is significant. Both sounds are velar plosives made by egress of the
pulmonic airstream. The difference is that [g] is voiced.

So I guess that we have a voiced sound made by an ingressive airstream, as
clicks are, where there is closure of the back of tongue against the velum.
  That surely has to be as Garth wrote on Monday, September 6:

> Probably an implosive (glottalic ingressive).
(Probably - because neither Garth not I can hear you. But I guess that's
what it is)

Implosives (i.e. glottalic ingressive stops) are fairly widespread in
African languages. IPA gives symbols for bilabial, dental/alveolar,
palatal, velar and uvular implosives.

I hope you find this helpful and maybe even gives other ideas for a
Frankenlang   :-)

Ray
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http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com
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"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO				September, 2004

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