Re: Offlang suggestion & counterproposal

En réponse à Maarten van Beek <dungeonmaster@...>:

>
> Well, not "quite" different, but "somewhat" different. That would be a
> better choice of words. Incidently, did you know that most journals
> are
> actually magazines?
>
Well, I doubt that the "International Journal of Heat Transfer" can be
considered as a magazine :)) .

>
> Because writers would not have to bother with laarning LateX. They can
> write
> in Word or whatever editor they already know, and save as HTML or RTF.
> The
> writer should not be bothered with selecting a certain format, since
> that is
> the editor's job.
That's where the problem lies. Where are you gonna find a conlanger who has
enough spare time and interest to do this full job? (I know that by experience)
Even I cannot do that unless you have a spell to magically double the number of
hours in a day. On the other hand, my solution solves the problem by giving to
*everyone* a little of this job, rather than to one or a few people the whole
job. I think in the case of this list it's only fair.

 If I would have to learn LateX, however easy it may
> be, I
> simply wouldn't bother sending in stuff.
Well, if you're lazy, I can do nothing for you. Why should you get everything
without doing some effort?

 Or can you provide me with a
> plugin
> where I can save a LateX file from Word? If that's the case, send it to
> me,
> and I will shut up.
>
Well, not directly from Word to LaTeX, but I can get a program which converts
automatically RTF to LaTeX. So that could do.

>
> No, it is not. Most of my students have learnt the computer by graphic
> interface. They are completely unfamiliar with the idea of text-based
> editing. They find tags etc. used for formatting counter-intuitive,
> not
> because they are, but because they are not used to it.
> I have taught informal website-making classes, and when I did an
> introduction of basic HTML layout, my students started groaning and
> complaining... until out comes Dreamweaver, Frontpage or some other
> WYSIWYG
> editor, and happy smiles appeared on their faces again: this was
> something
> they could work with, which was familar to them.
>
So what? It reminds me of the time I was learning to count by head. Most other
pupils were complaining that with the calculators you didn't need that anymore.
Except that I've seen now those people having problems in a supermarket because
they were unable to know how much worth they had in their car (and that before
the change to the Euro :)) ). You're not helping them by leaving them with
their laziness.

> I am kind of an in-between person: I prefer text-based editing along
> with
> WYSIWYG screens so I can directly see my result. I understand both
> sides
>
Well, for WYSIWYG fans, LyX is available for Windows. Except that to install it
you need to know as much about computers as a top hacker! :)) You just can't
work only with graphical interfaces all your life, or you're doomed to have to
ask for help at every little problem that happens on your computer (especially
if it has Windows).

>
> Well, if the material is already there, what's the point of putting it
> in a
> journal?
Indeed. That's why I called for articles. I don't want to reformat the list.

 The idea of a magazine or journal, imo, is to have people write
> new
> stuff, not just a re
>
Completely agreed, though I didn't wait for you to propose that :)) .

> And I would know some stuff to put into a conlang mag:
> -article discussing the special features of a certain conlang
Fits perfectly in a journal.

> -interview with a conlang VIP (someone who has created many conlangs, or
> has
> been for a long time, or who is seen as someone with very great skill)
> about
> his interests in conlanging
Fits in a journal too. Someone can improvise himself an interviewer. That's
what we did at the students' newspaper. We basically made only the layout (and
our own articles of course), but everyone participated in giving stuff like
those things. We don't need a staff for that.

> -a poll
Already proposed by myself just a few hours ago :)) .

> -phoneme of the month (a treatise about the use and abuse of a
> selected
> phoneme or set of phonemes in varisou conlangs and maybe natlangs)
> -How do you handle..(various conlang authors give ideas on how they
> handle a
> certain grammtical featue in their conlang or conlangs. E.g. "How do
> you
> handle the passive voice?" or "How do you handle numeric systems?"
That's also a technical article. Fits perfectly in a journal.

> -reader's tips
> -conlang complete (an overview of an entire conlang, including
> phonology,
> grammar, idiom etc.)
idem.

> -in the news: about conlangs in the outside world (Tolkien movie, a new
> Star
> Trek movie featuring the ancient klingon script)
> -translation exercise (a piece of text written in a conlang with a link
> to
> the website where the language is explained; in the subsequent issue:
> the
> translation... maybe even make it a contest: "best" translation wins a
> prize
> (but would require a jury))
> - Your word for... (like the weekly word list thingy that has just
> been
> started on the list. Each issue gives you the word to translate in
> yuor
> conlang for the next issue, with a short explanation).
> - A visit to... (a more in-depth story about the conculture for a
> certain
> conlang, but with an accent on the conlang aspect: explain idiom
> specific to
> the language etc.).
> - Something about script/alphabets
>
Well, what I see is that the difference between a magazine and a journal is
that in the magazine the staff does all the work. In my idea of a journal, all
those things can be put in. It's just that comes in what people put in. So if
someone makes a poll, it will be put in the journal. If someone writes an
interview, it will be put in too. The thing is that I leave people decide the
contents. I'll take care only of the layout. And because things like Publisher
are much too expensive, this layout will stay simple (I don't like fancy
layouts anyway, they prevent rather than enhance reading). If people want a
rubrique to appear at each issue, they just have to make sure that they send it
to me on time before each issue. I'll take care of the rest. And I can accept
RTF, LaTeX, and maybe HTML (as soon as I find a converter), nothing fancier.
Happy?

>
> That might be, but I joint a long time after creation, when the list
> had,
> imho, become something different. I believe, as I wrote in an e-mail a
> short
> while back, that the posts on this list should be more concise and more
> to
> the point. How can I ever critique and entire language just like that?
>
Who said you have to critique?

>
> Lol, in my experience, the more experience people have, the more
> different
> opinions they generally need :-)
>
True, as long as they talk about the same subject.

>
> But if I recall correctly, there was a post no too long ago, by someone
> who
> left this list because of the lack of critique he got when he posted
> his
> conlang. I wrote an analysis about it, and got many positive replies
> from
> people on the list. The core of my analysis was, that most people on
> the
> list do not have the time, nor the skills, nor the desire to study
> complete
> language profiles for the purpose of critiquing (there are exceptions).
Yep, I agreed at that time (and still do). But that's about the list, not about
a paper thing that would be released every three months.

> So
> my "magazine" was aimed for a somewhat broader audience, with less time
> to
> read through everything in detail, or with a specific interest in only
> certain aspects of conlanging (word creation, phonologies, grammars
> etc.),
> while your "journal", imo, is much more in-depth and aimed more at a
> small
> group of die-hard conlangers who rigorously read everything on any
> conlang
> that comes along.
>
Then again you misunderstood me completely. As I said in another post: *any*
kind of article is welcome. But I don't want to have to decide of the contents,
because I just don't have time for it, and I doubt we can make a board that
would do that. We're just too busy and all this stays on our free time! So if
you want interviews to appear in this journal, write them yourself, go and find
the people and interview them (you can even do that by email!). That's the main
difference between our proposals: my proposal is simpler to do, and thus
doable. Yours implies that a few people just stop having free time at all! Of
course, my proposal requires a minimum involvement from people in the format in
which they can send their articles (though I even said you could add pictures.
Just send them separately and indicate where they should be put in the
article), but you can't having anything for nothing. If we want such a big
thing to work out, everyone has to make an effort. It's just fair.

> I don't think one or the other is better, merely that they both have a
> different scope and serve a different audience.
No, it's just that you misunderstood my point. You want broad range articles
readable by anyone? Write them then! I'll be happy to put them in the journal.
But don't ask me to come up with a thing looking like "Newsweek", I just don't
have the time or the material to arrange that. While I can perfectly handle my
own proposal, and have enough experience to not be too pretentious when I say
that :)) .

 And don't tell me that
> your
> journal fits the audience on the list better without any form of
> proof,
> because then, I'll just shout the very same thing back at you :-)
>
Well, at least I already got the answer of two people ready to help me :)) . It
means that at least my proposal interests some people.

I think it's again one of those cases of "violent agreement" :)) . We basically
want the same thing, except that I leave to everyone (including myself, but
only for my articles) the job of making the contents. That's IMO the main thing
that differentiate a magazine from a journal (at least to my understanding of
those words). And my experience tells me that it works, even with people that
are not very positive with it at first :)) .

Christophe.

http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr

Take your life as a movie: do not let anybody else play the leading role.

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