Re: Offlang suggestion & counterproposal

En réponse à Maarten van Beek <dungeonmaster@...>:

>
> The point is not whether I am lazy or not, the point is that you want
> to
> make a journal.
Then you took me really wrong! This idea was Jan's. I just found it nice, and
proposed myself to make it work, if people are interested. But I'm not gonna
buy expensive programs and material just for it (I don't have the financial
means to do such a thing). If I am to do it, it will be with the material I
have. And since Word cannot be used (lack of compatibility, since I think an
electronic form is what most people will want), there is only one thing I can
use to make it work: LaTeX. It's not that I am tyrannical, it's just that I
don't have anything else to work with. If you know a good publishing program
that accept many different formats (including Word and LaTeX), stable even with
big files and free, then I'll withdraw my conditions.

 You have to deal with the situation as it is, whether
> you
> like or agree with it or not.
Yep. But the situation of my computer is more important than anything else
here. I'm just a volunteer. If somebody else can do what you would ask, I'll be
happy to let him/her do. It's not that I want to make a journal. It's that if
people want me to make a journal, it'll have to be with the means I have (but
if you want to offer me the software necessary, you're more than welcome :))).

 I agree it would be more fair if
> everybody
> shared a little of the work load, but that is just not going to happen.
> I am
> not lazy, and I would like a conlang magazine, but I just do not have
> time
> to also learn LateX in the process, install proper programms and stuff.
Well, I don't have time nor money to install the proper programs needed to be
able to accept other formats than LaTeX and RTF. My time is precious too.

> I
> rather work on my conlangs instead or on any of my other gazillion jobs
> and
> hobbies. And you know just how lazy I am, Christophe :-)
>
It was a generic "you" in this case, I wasn't specifically referring to you. My
time is also limited, whether you like it or not. If I am to make a journal, it
will be on my conditions, not because I want it but because I don't have any
choice!

> Btw, the people who are sending in stuff are already doing some work,
> namely
> writing down the stuff they send in. Asking them to learn and install a
> new
> editor and work in a certian fixed format means that you create a
> large
> barrier for people to start participating. I can't say whether that is
> fair
> or not, just that I think it  might prevent success.
>
Asking me to accept any kind of format and adapt everything to make it look
good at the end will prevent success too. I just don't have time for that.
Unless at least five people are ready to help me and have the skills needed, it
will be impossible to do. That's the choice: give everyone a little job to do,
or a few a lot. I won't accept the latter for something which is purely
voluntary.

>
> This has absolutely nothing to do with laziness whatsoever. It has to
> do
> with style. They are accustomed to a different working environment and
> that's what makes it hard for them, just as it is seemingly hard for you
> te
> create decent word documents that convert well.
Well, it's not hard, I've done it a lot when I was redactor of the students'
newspaper (done entirely in Word). I just know the limitations of it. I already
had problems putting together articles that were supposedly written with the
same version of Word as the one I was using! (and I'm not talking about the
number of times I lost the whole file because of a crash. I sometimes spent
more than 18 hours in a row to make a newspaper which was monthly. I just don't
have time anymore to do that. I'm not a student anymore. If somebody wants to
do that, go ahead. I don't *want* to make a journal. I just propose myself to
take care of it, that's different)

 What you are almost
> doing is
> telling everybody else to work in a style that fits you, so that you do
> not
> have to change yours.
No, I'm telling that I cannot get the software needed to fit everybody's style,
that's all.

 Instead of asking others to learn LateX, you
> cuold
> also try to learn how to convert Word documents quickly and correctly,
> something which is in my experience not that hard to do either.
>
Well, then do it yourself, because in my experience it's a pain in the ass
(I've often tried to convert Word documents into HTML for instance. Well, even
though it's supposed to do it automatically, I quickly found out that Word was
making the file so full of errors to correct that it was faster to me to re-
write the whole thing directly in HTML. But if that works with small one-page
things, it's out of the question that I do that for a 30-page journal! Where
will I find the time?).

>
> And neither can you live by the command line all your life, assuming
> that
> because your HTML is technically correct, it is supposed to look good
> on
> browsers :-)
>
Well, saying such stupid things doesn't really serve for anything. I just said
that you couldn't work only with a graphical interface (which is true). I never
said that you had to come back to command-line only! What's the use of
discussing if you distort my words like that? (and I saw the smiley. But it's
not a little smiling face which is gonna make such a thing funny and acceptable)

>
> I was never unhappy. I am merely trying to help you succeed in your
> attempt
> by pointing out where things could go wrong.
Well, I know very well the problems, and I don't have illusions. I'm just
stating my limitations, which don't come from a lack of will but from a lack of
material, time and money. Find me all, and I'll be happy to do exactly as you
want.

 In my opinion, the week
> point
> in all such efforts is that the initiators often think they are doing
> the
> world a favor with their initiative. But it is your initiative, so you
> are
> the only one who can succeed or fail.
It's not *my* initiative. It's just my answer to a proposal. I actually don't
care whether this journal will ever come to life. I find it a nice idea, and if
I can help I will, but if I'm to handle the whole thing it'll have to be done
with my possibilities (you weren't there IIRC, but I was there when the two
Conlang T-shirt projects were on topic. And I saw how things went wrong and in
the case of the second T-shirt how people lost quite some money out of it. In
my situation I cannot handle such a thing, so if it is to be done it will have
to be done with what I already have. It's just some personal protection).

 However good your actual idea,
> if
> people find it too much of a hassle, they will not be interested and
> nothing
> will come of it. I don't want to seem a doom-monger, but it is you who
> must
> make it work, not some bunch of anonymous people out there on the
> list...
>
That's where I disagree, by experience. We were working exactly the same way
with the students' newspaper, and the number of articles we received was always
large enough to make a 30-page (two-sided) newspaper at least.

>
> Well, I think your setup would work, but I believe the audience would
> remain
> rather limited. But let that not discourage you, because if that's what
> you
> want, then that's what you should do.
>
It's not what I *want*, it's what I *can*. Why do you have to put in my mouth
(or here on my fingers :) ) things I've never said?!

>
> But what then is the added value as opposed to this list?
>
Apart from the fact that you can add pictures and not be limited by ASCII, or
even by HTML? And the idea that we actually made something together?

>
> But is also requires a lot of spontaneity and initiative from the
> general
> public, which is the weak point imo.
>
Well, it worked in my school (and still works), where laziness was the norm. So
why not here? I'd rather think that it would work better here than in my
school, knowing the personality of the people on this list!

>
> Well, that's a little overdone. I just believe that for any plan to
> succeed,
> there should be at least a few people who actively promote it and work
> on
> it. I know very few plans that have succeeded through the minimum input
> of
> vary many people, because of the lack of coordination and sense of
> responsibility.
>
Again, I'll just have to talk about the students' magazine. We were actually
two to work on it (well, one and a quarter, since the other one was also busy
trying to maintain the computer network of the students) with no other power
than sending e-mails saying "we're waiting for your articles". And it worked
extremely well!

>
> Ha, but the world isn't fair.
Well, if you accept that it's your problem. When something is unfair I try to
correct it. And funny enough, it works! I know by experience that if the world
is unfair it's only because people accept the situation as it is. I personally
have never accepted to be treated unfairly, and always managed to make things
fair. I'm not gonna change now.

 Most people rather consume than
> contribute.
> Writing an article is already a lot of work.
>
I know that very well. But putting together articles is also a lot of work,
often even more than simply writing an article (I know both sides, so I talk by
experience). I just cannot handle it without asking for a little help (and it's
really minimum. You don't even have to install anything on your computer!
(except a LaTeX distribution if you want to help me by not sending RTF but TeX
format. And believe me, installing a LaTeX distribution is easy, and can even
be done by someone who never touched a command line :)) )

>
> > Write them then! I'll be happy to put them in the journal.
>
> Well, if I wrote something about that, I would just post it to this
> list.
Well, you then couldn't put pictures and would be limited by ASCII, and
probably half of the people wouldn't read you anyway. At least, with a journal
you're sure that the people who asked to get it will read it (and it can be
read in other places than in front of a computer, which can help people with
only limited computer access).

> What's the added value of the magazine, if it is merely a compilation
> of
> stuff we already do on the list.
>
I don't know, I'm not the one who got the idea. I just know that it would be
nice to have something that looks nice on paper.

>
> Oh, I am sure you can handle it, but I am not so sure whether you will
> have
> much too handle at all. I just don't believe that people will
> spontaneously
> start sending in articles all by themselves while they can post them to
> the
> list without bothering with format or style. Most people here don't
> even
> find the time or courage to put their own websites up.
>
Then the whole thing is already dead even before it began, because how will you
find people even to make an editorial staff if people don't have the courage to
at least make one article?

>
> Well, the main difference is that I think that the one making the
> journal
> should actively seek content (not write it yourself, but urge people
> to
> submit). I fear that if you just leave it up to individual people's
> initiative, that it will be over soon. It's the editor whose magazine it
> is,
> most other people will like it if it is there, and don't miss it if it
> is
> not.
>
Me neither. But explain me exactly what I can do to urge people to write
articles, except sending e-mails stating: "Would you write an article for the
journal?". Even if I come up with themes and subjects, unless I do them myself
I can never be sure that anyone will do it. At the end, people will still have
to make an effort. The effort to write an article itself won't be raised much
by doing it in a way that can help me, and will permit me to actually do the
thing (indeed it's simple: if it's not done the way I said it, I just *can't*
do it, even though I'd like it very much!). There's actually nothing to lose
after all, since right now there is nothing like a conlang journal. And I don't
say that it would be impossible later to do the thing the way you explained,
but that for now, if we want to actually begin something we have to do it
modestly, with the means we have (or *I* have, if I am to do it). Later we may
be able to update the whole journal thing to a format friendlier to the
submitters. But it's just materially impossible to start from scratch like
that. If I was to make it according to your critics, it would mean an
investment that I am unable to make. But if anyone can do it, that would be
nice indeed!

Christophe.

http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr

Take your life as a movie: do not let anybody else play the leading role.

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