Re: interesting websites: topic-prominent languages, Lisu, etc.

In a message dated 10/2/00 6:33:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
joerg.rhiemeier@FREENET.DE writes:

> > I'm curious now: my language Finvaran uses a fairly odd system of markers
>  > based not on the grade-school-issue subject/direct-object/indirect-object
>  > division, but on a more precise
>  > agent/patient/goal/recipient/instrument/etc...... division with suffixes
>  > designating each.
>
>  Sounds like an active system.  It sounds quite similar to what
>  I have done in my conlang Nur-ellen.  Tell us more, please!
well, for that, I'll wait till it goes on the website.... it'd make for a
long email. looking below, I should point out that there is no one "objective
case"... there's several different ones. also, there's no such thing as
prepositions.... in an offical sense, I suppose I'm using postpositions, but
a native speaker, even a native linguist, would quite sincerely tell you that
those were "nouns with the location affix". Adverbs are the same way (there
are affixes for time and for manner).
>
>  >       Is an "agent-prominent" language considered
>  > "subject-prominent"? The distinction is usually not a big deal, but
comes
> up
>  > in passive voice: in English, "The house was painted last week" has "the
>  > house" as the subject. The Finvaran equivalent has *no* agent.... the
> house
>  > is still the patient of the action "paint (past tense)".
>
>  Yes, there is no agent; passivization doesn't change this in the least.
>  Active languages tend to lack passive; at any rate, there is no passive
>  in Nur-ellen because I feel it doesn't make much sense in a language
>  which explicitly mark agents rather than "subjects".  If there is no
>  agent, there is no agent; no reason to treat something like an agent
>  if it isn't!
hmm, now that you mention it, I really should delete the "passive/stative"
suffix... I wonder why I thought I needed it? I guess I was looking at the
"was" in English. rr. I do have "continuant" and "completed" verb suffixes
for when I want to distinguish (ex. the man WAS painting the house when....
takes continuant; the house was painted last year would take completed,
although it doesn't need to be marked with the "last year" in there). and I
thought I was being careful with the English stuff. I was having problems
with the "the door was open/the door was opened" issue, but now that I think
about it I can use the completed/continuant there too.
>
>  Examples in Nur-ellen:
>
>  I   sarn      lantent.
>  the OBJ.stone fall-PAST
>  "The stone fell."
>
>  Ni   i   dring      dringent i   tes.
>  INST the OBJ.hammer hit-PAST the OBJ.nail
>  "The hammer hit the nail."
>
>  Both sentences have no agent; the hammer in the second example
>  is not an agent but an *instrument*, as it doesn't act out of itself.
that's interesting.....I never thought about that. can I borrow that usage?
>
>  >       I think I actually
>  > have a subject- and topic-prominent language on my hands; the noun order
> is
>  > free since they're all marked, and the first noun is considered the most
>  > important to the meaning of the sentence ("She went to the party"
> emphasizes
>  > "she"; "the party, she went to" emphasizes "party") but the agent is the
>  > default first noun when you don't want a particular "topic".
>
>  This is the same way it is done in Nur-ellen.  Default word order:
>
>  He      badent  na i   mert.
>  AGT.she go-PAST to the OBJ.party
>
>  Inverted order to topicalize "the party":
>
>  Na i   mert      he      badent.
>  to the OBJ.party AGT.she go-PAST
>
>  (AGT: agentive case, OBJ: objective case)
>
>  Does Finvaran do the same?
well, roughly. except as mentioned above, Finvaran treats prepositions in a
fairly odd manner, and also it's strictly verb-final. (also, there are no
articles, but that's minor). let's see.... what words can I use as an
example, not having "party" yet....well, "to" specifically is expressed as
"goal" suffix, rather than location. but....
"she went to the tower" (normal)
se-sye enbin-bara iki.
3rdperson-AGT.FEM tower-GOAL go.PAST
(FEM=feminine, AGT=agent... sy is pronounced "sh" and anything unspecified is
singlular and neutral/ungendered)

emphasizing where she went:
enbin-bara se-sye iki.
tower-GOAL 3rdperson-AGT.FEM go.PAST

it just moves nouns around, the verbs just sit there at the end... if I had a
"tall" adjective in there (actually, I'd probably treat that as
"much.height-[suffix that makes nouns into adjectives]"... I'm trying to
eliminate adjectives that aren't from nouns or verbs as much as possible) it
would be directly before enbin (tower) and move with it.

Emily


=============================================================
I ate your Web page.
Forgive me. It was juicy
And tart on my tongue.